What marketers need to know about… Customer Success

Key Insights:
The Difference Between Customer Experience and Customer Success:

Customer Experience (CX) is the entire journey a customer has with a brand, encompassing every touchpoint from awareness to after-sales.
Customer Success (CS) is ensuring the customer achieves their desired outcomes through the use of a product or service, often requiring a proactive, partnership-based approach.
Practical Takeaway: Map the customer journey in your business and identify where marketing can better align with customer success efforts, ensuring that customer promises and experiences are in sync.

Common Misconceptions About Customer Experience:

CX is Not Just About Complaints: It is about every interaction across the customer journey, not just post-sale problem-solving.
Focus on the Basics First: Rather than jumping to “surprise and delight” strategies, ensure that the fundamentals of the customer experience are consistently strong.
Practical Takeaway: Audit your customer touchpoints (website, support, email communications) to ensure there is consistency. Focus on seamlessness and delivering the basics perfectly.

CX Leadership: The “Conductor” Role:

CX leaders often don’t directly control operations, but their role is to influence and align teams—marketing, operations, sales, and customer support—toward a common goal: excellent customer experience.
Practical Takeaway: Marketers should collaborate more frequently with CX leaders to align brand messaging with actual customer touchpoints. Create regular touchpoints (e.g., monthly meetings) with CX teams.

Six-Part Framework for CX Success:

Vision: Clarify what your brand’s customer experience should feel like (e.g., simplicity, personalization).
Design Principles: Implement CX design principles such as low customer effort and high personalization.
Listening Tools: Use multiple feedback sources (social, surveys, reviews) to gather customer sentiment.
Leadership & Culture: Build a customer-first culture that values feedback, communication, and CX excellence.
Governance: Prioritize and continuously assess CX initiatives for impact and alignment with business goals.
Metrics: Measure the right data beyond NPS, including customer churn and customer satisfaction.
Practical Takeaway: Develop internal “CX Principles” to guide every department. Use tools like journey mapping and feedback loops to constantly monitor and refine experiences.

Tools and Practical Takeaways

Tools for Gathering Customer Insights

Survey Tools: Use platforms like SurveyMonkey or Typeform to collect customer feedback.
Sentiment Analysis: Tools like Chattermill or WordNerds can analyze unstructured data from social media, reviews, and other customer feedback channels.
Customer Journey Mapping: Platforms like Lucidchart or Smaply allow you to visualize customer journeys and highlight key touchpoints where CX and marketing intersect.
Practical Takeaway: Regularly gather both structured (surveys, NPS) and unstructured (social media, reviews) feedback. Look for patterns of dissatisfaction or high engagement that marketing can address.

Practical Strategies for CX-Minded Marketing

Cross-Department Collaboration: Build stronger relationships between marketing, CX, and customer support teams. Use shared tools like Slack or Trello to create transparency in customer issue tracking.
Empower Frontline Teams: Equip customer-facing staff with autonomy to make real-time decisions that enhance CX (e.g., offering a free service or voucher when resolving issues).
Practical Takeaway: Marketers should spend time with customer support teams or directly listening to calls (most CRMs or support systems like Zendesk or Genesys allow this) to understand common issues and turn them into proactive marketing solutions.

Personalizing Customer Experience

CRM Tools: Leverage HubSpot, Salesforce, or Zoho to segment and personalize interactions based on customer behaviors and preferences.
Behavior-Driven Campaigns: Use platforms like Klaviyo for personalized email automation based on customer actions.
Practical Takeaway: Customize marketing messaging based on data from customer success tools, driving retention and higher engagement with timely and relevant communication.

Measuring Success

Beyond NPS: Track customer churn, retention rates, lifetime value (LTV), and other key metrics to measure the long-term effectiveness of both marketing and CX strategies.
Internal Satisfaction: Measure satisfaction between internal teams (e.g., marketing, sales, customer support) to identify friction points and smooth internal workflows.
Practical Takeaway: Set up dashboards using tools like Google Data Studio or Tableau to consolidate and visualize data across marketing and CX. This will help make data-driven decisions and track performance holistically.

These key insights and practical tools should empower marketers to better collaborate with CX teams, ensuring a seamless and cohesive customer journey that enhances loyalty and long-term success.

Transcript (AI generated – May contain some errors)

Speaker 1: Hello, everybody. It’s so lovely to see you all today. Thank you all so much for taking the time. It is a pleasure amongst pleasures to spend some time in your company today. If you haven’t already, do pop in the chat feature, just like Mandy, Rachel, Sally, Maria, James, Lorna, Erica, Grace, Kat, Annette, Erica, Paula, Sally, Cecilia, Catherine, Emma, have already, saying where you’re representing from, just like Peter has right now. And also, if you haven’t already, or in fact, a challenge for today, not a challenge, a nice share, is if you want to share today where you’re going away on summer holidays, then please do, because it would be nice to see if folks are heading away over these next six weeks or so. While you’re doing that, you’ll be able to see in your chat feature that some of you will have the option which says to, and presently, if that says to host some panelists, make sure to click that and switch it over to everyone, as you can see on the screen, and that will mean that everyone can see your messages, not just Vinay and I, throughout the duration of today’s session. We’ve got Emma going to Vienna, which sounds like a beautiful rhyme, and we’ve got some other folks going to some wonderful places. I hope you have a lovely time in Disneyland Paris, Lauren. So today is a slight change in the schedule. We have one speaker today instead of two. That is because our representative from the legal sector unfortunately couldn’t make it today, for some really, really good reasons. It’s not my place to divulge those, but fair to say that we’d love to have Ryan back another day. He’s a very lovely man, and that’s all cool. But what that does give us is the benefit of a full session with Vinay, who is just a hero amongst men. We’ve just been going before we went live today, and I feel uplifted and relaxed all at the same time. So I know you’re going to absolutely love him. Vinay has a storied career, taking him into organizations such as Egg, as their head of change, National Express, as their chief customer experience officer, as well as running his own company right now, and being a TMM speaker, and just as I say, an absolute hero, as someone who I know you’re going to love. So today we have this opportunity to deep dive into keeping the customers we have happy from the experience, customer experience, customer success. That’s going to be one of my questions today, because even finding out those things will be quite useful. Before we get going, I just want to say a big thank you to our featured sponsor. So this week’s featured sponsor is Cambridge Marketing College. They’re very lovely people, and they’ve just released a new syllabus, or in the process of releasing a new syllabus, with brand new CIM courses. So if you’re interested in getting qualified with the CIM, Cambridge Marketing College are your folks. Likewise, a big thank you to our other sponsors, all of whom we’ll speak about in more depth in future weeks. We’ve got Frontify Exclaimer, Sticky Beak, Plannable, Cambridge Marketing College, Redgate, and Scorap as well, who are wonderful, wonderful folks. So now we head into the session, and we’ve got Stephanie as the last person in the chat saying hello. Please do keep that chat feature going, and if you’ve got any questions throughout the duration of today’s session, do drop them into the Q&A, which is found in your toolbar below as well. We’ll make sure to get those questions in throughout the duration of today’s session. So with all that said, Vinay, hopefully your ego is suitably plumped, because it should be. So let’s get going on customer experience and customer success. So can you share, from your perspective, what customer success or customer experience is, and whether there’s a difference between the two? Because we’re coming into this, or I’m coming into this, very much as a layperson, as a marketer, trying to understand your world
Speaker 2: just a little bit better. Yeah, sure, sure, and thank you for the wonderful introduction. So I’ll add a third term into there, and then we can talk about the relationship of the three. So I’ll add customer service into there as well, because I think that’s another another angle. So yeah, if you think about customer experience is the collection of service points across your entire customer journey, whether that’s through the interaction with your marketing, your branding, your sales and pre-sales process, whether it’s through the operation, execution of your product delivery, etc., or after-sales support, each of those is a service point, and each of those interactions collectively together create the end-to-end customer experience. And what I say is the product of customer experience is memory, because it’s the memories that we have of those brands that contain the emotion and the feeling of those, and it’s that emotion that drives our behavior, and our behavior that then drives our results going forward, which I’m sure we’ll get into. Customer success is, again, within that customer experience, I guess, hierarchy. Customer success is almost like an evolution of old-school business development, and customer success was a coin termed around the approach that business development would have, where they closer align themselves to the goal of the organization that they’re selling into. So having much more of a partnership approach, a collaborative approach to understanding what is that organization trying to achieve, and if I’m selling a platform in or a service in, the customer success is about how do I help the customer achieve their goals through the product and service that I have. I hope that
Speaker 1: makes sense. Absolutely, that’s really, really useful. So for the purpose of today’s session, it would actually be more relevant to speak about customer experience, because that’s that totality hierarchy sort of thing. Yeah. Super useful, that’s really, really good. Okay, so let’s start getting into that then. So what would you say is the most common misconception around customer experience that you tend to encounter on the regular in your job? Yeah, probably the most
Speaker 2: common misconception is customer experience happens in the contact center, and then that’s it. Like it’s to do with complaints, it’s to do with after-sales service, and as I said earlier, that’s part of it, but it’s not the be-all and end-all. It’s that collection of all the way through, because what you’re trying to do really through customer experience is through all this interaction is create a consistency of feeling. You know, you’re all skilled marketers and brand experts. Your skill is in telling the story and setting the expectation of what customers are going to get by interacting with this product, service, or company. The skill in the customer experience is to ensure that the gap between that brand promise and the reality is like that, but in reality often it’s like that, right? And so customer experience is that kind of broader piece. That’s the first misconception. The second one is people jump to this thing about, oh, it’s going to be about surprise and delight and all these magical moments and all these kind of things, and those are important things, but in order to get there you need permission through delivering just consistently great basics. You know, how often do you deal with a company where they fail at some of the basic things and then they try to do something that’s, you know, kind of out here, gold-plated or to the next level? So I think it’s not about just these amazing, wonderful moments that you hear about which are important, but it is about consistently delivering the basics really, really well
Speaker 1: every single time through excellence. I love that. So Celia in the chat has said I’m a bit quiet in my thing, so I’ve turned my gain up. So Celia, you’re in charge of telling me whether my volume is correct now, so let me know. But thank you for that answer, Vinay, because that’s super useful and it strikes me that, like, so I’ve got two favourite brands at the moment. The first is Lock Hotels and then the second is Forer, a co-working space, and with these two brands, exactly as you say, they’re not, I mean, they are beautiful, you know, they do the extras really well, but actually it’s the basics, the fundamentals that work really well, and it brings me back to a quote from Margaret Malloy in one of our first ever webinars, which was, a brand is a promise kept. And so when you’re speaking about the first part of your answer there, where it was sort of like we’re just doing the thing that we were going to say we’re going to do, that’s really fabulous and makes a lot of sense. The interesting thing though, as you were speaking there, is that I think we came into today’s session, or I certainly did, sort of anticipating a line somewhere between my work as a marketer and your work as a head of experience, but actually it strikes me that there’s an immense amount of crossover between the two. So how do you see that? Do you see yourself as a marketing person or do you see yourself as a customer experience person? How do you see that?
Speaker 2: All of the above. So there is a line, but it’s not vertical, it’s horizontal, and it’s a line that joins things together. And if you think about the role of customer experience or someone who’s leading customer experience, often they don’t control the parts of the operation that deliver the results. I’m not an operations director, I’m not those kind of things. It’s like being a conductor of an orchestra, right? So I have the sheet of music and I know what it is that we’re trying to play. And my job is to influence each of these skilled musicians and people that are brilliant at what they do to work in the right order, in the right context, at the right time to deliver that symphony. So the skill of a CX leader is really about relationship building, influencing, joining the dots horizontally, and being able to communicate from those different perspectives in the boardroom. Being able to talk in marketing language to the marketing director and the brand director, being able to talk in the language of operations and commit the commercial team and the CFO. It doesn’t mean I need to be an expert in all of those things. It’s all about me understanding their world enough that I can create that connection that I can influence. And so it is a huge amount of crossover. Customer experience is horizontal in an organization where everything else is vertical. So you absolutely do flow across those things. Now, the downside of that is sometimes people in my career have gone, what are you doing in my area? Get out, go and do your own thing. So it is about managing those relationships. And sometimes you can be seen as a threat or a why are you in here and why are you asking these questions? But it just comes back to helping people understand that actually this is about the bigger picture. This is about the end to end. My job in here is to help you look good in that bigger picture, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: I’ve just got to point out that that’s probably the smoothest answer that we’ve ever had. Like someone just go, oh yeah, it’s not a vertical line. It’s a horizontal line. Yeah, fabulous. And I can see the folks in the chat agree about the conductor analogy seems to work really well. When you’re speaking about that horizontal line, I’m going really deep here. Yeah. But are you speaking to literally every department? Is that your job? Or are you doing bits with specifically marketing with the contact center as an example, but maybe you don’t speak to finance quite as much?
Speaker 2: I think it is every team, but it’s your involvement with each team differs and it’s to different levels. Clearly, the more naturally customer facing teams, you’re probably likely to have more day-to-day conversation with and interaction with. But for example, recruitment is just as important. If your recruitment team isn’t recruiting on brand to the right values, the right personality sets, the right people, and you’re hiring the wrong people into your organization, that has just as much of a detrimental impact because we’re talking about the customer experience as the external experience that customers get, but it’s driven by the internal culture. And if the insides aren’t right, then the outside isn’t going to be right. And the analogy I use for that would be, it’s like, when you go on a fitness regime, you can go to the gym all that you like, but if you don’t eat well, if you don’t take care of the insides, it’s going to look lovely on the, you’re going to look great on the outside, but on the inside, it’s just not going to be right. And that’s not sustainable. So you have to do both. And so, yeah, it differs from team to team. Clearly, you know, finance is one of those things, but also it’s that paying attention to the internal customer experience between teams and departments. And we spend so much time measuring NPS between us and customers or satisfaction between us and customers, but internally, do we ever measure the internal satisfaction from department to department, how teams work together, understand the friction points between those teams and fix those? Because when you take care of some of that, that again, reflects in the outside experience. That’s super interesting. And like, it’s funny,
Speaker 1: you know, this whole series is really about understanding other departments, you know, that internal dynamic between each of them, because, you know, that’s how businesses work, is a collection of people, you know, sort of working towards a goal. And sure. Yeah. Yeah. That’s helpful. I’m going to take us into a slightly different territory here, particularly as I’m going to loop in a question from one of the folks watching in today, who has asked in the Q&A. So I’m going to ask my question first, and I’m going to come into the community’s Q&A. So just a new highlight to anyone watching in, do pop your questions into the Q&A, and we’ll try and loop these in as we go. So my question is that with marketing, we kind of sit here with, you know, diagnosis, strategy and tactics, you know, is a way for us to understand the world of marketing. And not everyone uses that framework, but it’s a framework, nonetheless, that has been really, really helpful for me to kind of rationalize my marketing world. Is there an equivalent in the CX world where you have a set of principles or foundations or strategies that would be useful for people to understand how CX people kind of look at the world? I mean, you’ve already mentioned relationships being an important skill and stuff like NPS being an interesting metric. But are there the sort of frameworks and skeletons, so to speak, frameworks?
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there are. There are probably six key components in a framework that I would adopt. This is from my perspective. In customer experience, there is a clear upfront piece, which is, I guess, the crossover with marketing and branding, which is, what’s the story here? What’s the vision for how we want customers to feel? And some of that’s influenced by brand values and, you know, the organization. So there’s a clear crossover and joining of the dots in that specific space. And why that’s important is that often, when you talk to companies about their customer experience strategy and what they’re trying to do, it seems to be independent of anything else. There’s no clarity about what good looks like. There’s a great slide that I use in some of the talks that I give with Alice in Wonderland, and this is a brilliant bit where she comes across the Cheshire Cat for the first time, and she’s at a crossroads. And she asks Cheshire Cat, which way do I go? And he says to her, well, which way are you heading? And she says, well, I don’t know. And he says, well, it doesn’t matter then, does it? And so, you know, you need to have that clarity of vision about what you want that experience to be. You know, people moan about Ryanair and make jokes about them, but Ryanair know exactly who they are. They know what they stand for. They know the experience that they want to deliver. We might not like it, we might not agree with it, but they know what they stand for. So there’s that clarity of thought. And then you’ve got a set of kind of design principles or a framework that I would call it, that allow people to give people the guiding star about how do we want to then, if that’s how we want people to feel, how do we design our experiences? What are the principles? So there might be things like everything we’re going to do is going to be super simple, low effort. We’re going to make sure that everything’s personalized as much as, whatever your principles are in your organization to deliver that experience. The third then would be, how do we listen? And I don’t know, you might be too young for this show. You might not remember this. I’m a little bit older than you, but when I was a kid, there was a nursery rhyme about rainbows. You know, red and yellow and purple, green, purple, orange, and blue, whatever it is. And in there, there’s a line that says, listen with your eyes, listen with your eyes. And as a kid, I was like, what do you mean listen with your eyes? How the hell do you listen with your eyes? And what it actually meant to me growing up was listening isn’t just done with one of your senses. It’s done with everything. But often in organizations, when they’re listening for customers, it’s through a survey or it’s through complaints data, or it’s just one particular sense that we’re using. But there’s always more going on than that. So your breadth of listening, unstructured data, social media, reviews, customer feedback that we’ve asked for, customer feedback that we haven’t asked for, you know, imperial research, all of those things that we would do, it’s how do we better understand our customers? So that’s kind of the kind of the next piece of it. And then you’ve got your leadership and culture part about, well, okay, how do we how do we create a culture that shows people what good looks like? And, you know, if you follow me on LinkedIn, you’ll share, I’ve shared stories about this recently, which is that importance of validation. I worked at McDonald’s when I was a kid when I was 16, 17 years old. And in as part of that, as part of that training, back when people use cash, and not contactless, there was a little ultraviolet light that used to put notes in there that would tell you whether they were real or not. And you learn about it in your training, and you just transactionally practice, put it in, take it out, put it and take it out. I remember the first time my note lit up from a real customer. And I was like, Oh, God, what do I do now? So I spoke to the customer and explained it was a fake note, and the manager came over and helped me. And then at the end of it, he just came over to me and he said, Well done. Well done for spotting that, you know, you’ve stopped somebody using a fake note. Now, it was a tiny little thing, it was only a five pound note. But the act of him telling me that it was valuable, made me relate to that activity differently. So I suddenly placed the value on what was normally a transactional activity. And I thought that’s what good looks like. And furthermore, in National Express, for example, when I was rolling out a program of standards about how we wanted people to behave, one of the ways that we kind of rolled it out was we use an internal social media platform, which is workplace, which is Facebook’s internal version. And we rolled it out. And we got people to share their stories of what they were doing. And the executive team would like them comment on them. And then as they were doing that, it gave people validation to understand, this is what good looks like. So that’s, that’s kind of your, your kind of your next bit. And then you’ve got your, your governance and lead and your governance and quality control, I guess, which is the whole, how do you take that information and data that you’re getting prioritized to fix the right things in the right place? And how do you monitor the impact of those kinds of things as well? And then the last one, we touched on it earlier is measurement, what are the metrics, what are the things we’re measuring? Now, the common metrics are obviously things like NPS and CSAT and things that people are familiar with. But equally, you’ve got to measure the things that are right for your organization too. And just a quick story I’ll share. I was talking to somebody that worked for a B2B service. And this B2B service was a pest control company. And he was talking about NPS and saying, well, we don’t really get a really good recommend score because nobody really wants us turning up outside their restaurant. Because if somebody sees one of our vans outside, no one’s going to want to come in. So often we’re in the shadows, we’re at the back, we go in, we do our job and we get out. But we don’t really get recommend, we don’t really get a will you recommend this because nobody wants to admit that they’ve used our service. I said, well, what’s, what’s more important to you then? What’s the measure in your business that tells you that your team? And he went, actually, for us, it’s about customers trusting that we’re doing a good job, that they trust us to get the job done, do it discreetly and do it the right way. And I was like, well, why aren’t you measuring that then? Because if that’s important to you and your brand, measure it. There’s no, there’s nothing in the rule book that says that you can’t measure it. You know, NPS and CTAC are really useful tools for all companies, but they might not be right for your organization. So picking those right metrics is important as well. And also things like, you know, tracking customer churn and long-term value and all of those kinds of other things is important. So they’re kind of the six fundamentals
Speaker 1: that I would have in kind of the framework. Wonderful. That’s so useful, mate. Thank you very much. Endlessly useful indeed. And actually the question I was going to pick on and the best speakers tend to do this, you know, where you got a question lined up in your head and then, and then they speak through the answer and then they answer it. So Rachel here who asked, do you find NPS slash net promoter score to be useful or do you typically get answers at just the far end of the scale? So how do you use it? So I think hopefully you’ve answered that there.
Speaker 2: Well, I can, I can lead into that a little bit more, Rachel, if you’d like. And again, this is my own personal view. You’ll, you’ll find people that will violently disagree with me. There are people that are in the NPS fan club and there’s nothing wrong with that. You know, it’s, it’s absolutely fine. My lived experiences is that the purpose of NPS and why it was set up was to help companies to really understand the likelihood to recommend. It’s supposed to be an indicator. But unfortunately over the years, what’s happened is that it’s becoming some organizations, a target and an arbitrary number just to run after. And there’s, there’s no kind of real sense and meaning behind why we’re doing that. The most valuable bit in NPS is not the number. It’s the data that you get as to what’s driving the number. When you ask a customer, why have you given me that score? That’s the value in it. So it depends on how it’s used in an organization. It can be super, super useful, or it can be a real distraction.
Speaker 1: That’s fabulous. That’s so useful, mate. Really, really fabulous. And actually, just to pick up, because we’ve got Rob McPherson, who is in himself a really fabulous marketing strategist, who we need to get speaking at TMM one day, was speaking about the restaurant story and linking it to the Head & Shoulders current campaign about, I didn’t know you had dandruff and,
Speaker 2: and sort of the, yeah, I don’t, I don’t. I saw, I saw a, I saw a really great, I don’t know whether Rob, you might have seen this, but Rory Sutherland is one of my favourites. Like I love listening to that guy. I could listen to him forever. And he, I just saw a clip of him funnily enough, where he was talking about marketing, how we use the bug to be the bit of any, any of the example he uses is Guinness. It’s one of the slowest pouring drinks you’d have. Bar staff hate it, but it’s all good things come to people who wait, that kind of thing. And it’s using the thing that’s wrong, the thing that’s the defective part as the, the thing that, you know, sells the product. So yeah, I get, I get that Rob, that’s a really great one. I love it. Let’s, you’ve given us such
Speaker 1: a fabulous grounding into, into your world. So thank you. But it strikes me, again, you know, we sort of speak about horizontal lines and vertical lines and stuff like that, that there is such a, a big contribution that marketing can make to your part of the world. So what have the best marketers done when they’re interacting with you to really, you know, sort of build that relationship and make customer success, customer experience a real success from a marketing
Speaker 2: perspective as, as marketers? Yeah, I think that fundamentally it comes back to what I talked about earlier on, and that’s about having a collaborative mindset. There are, there are some marketers who have come across, across my career who are quite protected by the way, no, this is marketing, this is branding, you won’t, you won’t get involved in this, this is our thing. But actually the power of, you know, I shared this when I spoke at your event, Joe, the power of marketing comes from the brand and the power of the brand comes from customer experience. I think just as Superman gets his power from the sun, the brand gets his experience, the power from its customer experience, right? So really marketers should see customer experience as a powerhouse to helping 10x their marketing, to 10x their branding, because if they, they really lean in and collaborate together, it’s a powerful duo. It’s like, you know, if you were to write a comic book and put the two, the two best superheroes together, you’d probably put those two together, you know? So definitely I think the approach is to work in a much more collaborative way. We’re both connected by wanting to understand customers from different perspectives. One is about understanding what customers could do, might do in the future, how we attract them, how do we get them in. The other’s about, well, have we, when we’ve got them in, how have we actually delivered to them? What did they tell us about? Did we meet the needs? Did we meet the expectations? What’s driving their behavior and their propensity to buy? Again, how do we then take that data and furnish our branding and marketing teams and work together to go, how do we make sense of all of this? But also, you know, those emerging trends and what’s happening for, you know, future customers, not just from expectations, but language, the way that we interact, and how does that come through into the design of the overall CX. That is so useful. And I may ask you to repeat some of
Speaker 1: the stuff that you just said here, but I want to make sure that Emma’s question is covered off, because I think it’s in a direct and tactical way when I tend to fluff about sometimes. So Emma says, do you have any tips for getting information from customer service brains over to marketers? So possibly even speaking about the relationship the other way, you know, where you’re out to
Speaker 2: your folks. Yeah, definitely. So I think in a lot of organizations, the customer service team and the contact center are often a forgotten entity. So they’re almost left out to sea. They’re normally the last ones to find out about change or something that happens or, you know, it’s the place that you go when stuff goes wrong. So I would say the way to get information out of them is to be interested. And so when I’m working with organizations, one of the first things I get people to do, well, two things I get people to do is one, go and sit in the contact center, listen to calls, talk to the people, understand what’s going on in there, spend time in there, because it’s a treasure trove of information and data. And the really interesting thing is the customer service team don’t always know the value of what they’ve got. So they won’t naturally say to you, oh, we should tell marketing this because they’ll really want to know. But unless you’re in that space listening and doing that kind of thing, it’s really important. And nowadays, you know, we’ve got tools that can transcribe calls and organize it into conceptualization and sentiment analysis and all of these things that can help. But fundamentally, spend time either in the contact center, on the front line, and those kind of things. The second thing I get teams to do, particularly executive and heads of, is to go out and use the product or service exactly how a customer would. And I do that for two reasons. One, in an organization, the more successful you become, and the more you’re promoted, the further away you become from the customer. So the only time you have a connection with the customer is the data that you get in the KPI packs and the reporting. And the trouble with that is when it becomes data on a page, and it’s black and white text, there’s no emotion in there. It’s washed of any emotion. It’s just numbers in a table, right? So you don’t always get the full story. And the second thing is, is that often the people that work in an organizations aren’t users of the products regularly that they’re selling. So the example I’ll give you is, at National Express, most of the people that work there wouldn’t be natural coach customers or bus customers. So in order for them to really relate to it, we get them to use it. So I got the exec. We used to do a weekly thing, sorry, a monthly, an annual thing once a week, exec on the move. And we’d send the exec out, and we’d give them scenarios. Go on the website, book your own ticket, try and get a refund, do all of the things that a customer would try to do, so that they understood from the customer’s perspective. Go into the website and try and find the answer to this question. You’re not allowed to cheat. You’re not allowed to use your PA. You’re not allowed to use any inside connections you’ve got. You’ve got to do it as a customer. And it really brought home to a lot of people some of the things that were fundamentally wrong that they hadn’t realized were having such an impact. So to answer Emma’s question, the way to get it out of customer service, lean into customer service. Be interested. They’ll love you if you become their friend, because they’re just crying out for people to be in contact with them. Ask some great questions. Use the products and service. And when you use the product and service and you find things, share it with them. Say, look, I tried to go on our website, and this is what happened. Are you getting many customers talking about this? Is this, oh, yeah, yeah, we get this. And once you get them in a conversation, you won’t be able to shut them up. So yeah, that’s what my advice would be. That kind of stuff is absolute gold,
Speaker 1: as you say. But if people don’t realize that that’s a thing, that they need to think back, then yeah, it can be missed. And it’ll be a shame, because that’s the stuff that really drives us forward. And just to highlight points, we’re midway through the series now on sort of speaking to non-marketing folks about the roles. And there’s a very consistent theme that, for the most part, and I appreciate this isn’t universal, but people would love to have these chats, and find these things out. It’s hard, because we’re so busy. Everyone’s so busy. But when you
Speaker 2: can, it’s a wonderful thing. And you’re right. And probably what’s not helping at the moment is remote hybrid working. It’s clearly got lots of benefits. But when you are not in regular contact, I remember picking up things, just accidentally bumping into somebody, making a cup of coffee in the kitchen. And we get into a conversation about something they were working on. Oh, I don’t know about that project. Tell me a bit more. And I’d be able to kind of go, oh, I think one of my team needs to be involved in there. Or somebody would say something to me about wanting to find out something, and we’d be able to do that. And those things don’t tend to happen anymore by accident, or by osmosis, or whatever the term is. So I think we’re in a real kind of difficult way to have to navigate that. So we have to try harder to create those. And you’re right, bandwidth is an issue. But I think scheduling in half an hour, 45 minutes, just to talk to contact center team leaders, managers, listen to calls, or just say, listen, a lot of contact center software now allows you to listen insolently, remotely. So if you speak to your contact center team and say, listen, can I get a log on that I can just sit in the background and listen to calls for half an hour? They can set that up for you. It’s not hard.
Speaker 1: It’s endlessly useful. It’s actually one of the questions in the Q&A from Jenny, who asks, any recommendations for tools? So maybe any specific tools that you tend to use that can analyze calls or something? But maybe if we brought up tools on your desk.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there’s a bunch of them. There’s some real big hitting type tools like Qualtrics and Medallia, which are at the upper end. And there’s some great emerging technology, people like WordNerds, who did a really great piece for me at National Express, who I know pretty well. And then you’ve got people like Chattermill in that kind of space. You’ve got Centosome. So you’ve got these kind of brands that are really focused in on how do we take unstructured data and help to kind of analyze stuff. So yeah, there’s those most contact center telephony platforms, the most more modern ones, see Genesys, those kind of those eight by eight and others will allow you to do remote listening. It’s not a difficult thing to do. A lot of them also now transcribe calls and we’re able to do some low level analysis on things coming out. So most organizations, if they’ve invested in tech in the last five to 10 years, will probably have some capability that will be able to do that.
Speaker 1: I love it. Let’s take us to a place where I think folks in slightly smaller organizations are probably likely to be doing, specifically solo marketers in smaller organizations, are quite likely to be doing elements of customer service, specifically on social media. And so last week, two weeks ago, James and I visited Innocent Smoothies. And what was that they had a proactive social media person who was more in charge of posting and coming up with ideas and stuff like that. And then they had a community manager, they called it in that instance, who was the person in charge of responding to stuff. And I think a lot of marketers on the call today will probably be familiar with an experience where they’ve posted something to social. And then all of a sudden, they’re in charge of responding to possibly a negative response. Yeah. And I guess this is somewhere where our worlds could collide a little bit. And I wondered, would you have any recommendations, like from from a pro on how to handle these sort of negative situations? And yeah, just how to sort of guide people through where the experience goes wrong,
Speaker 2: or the experience is playing out publicly? And it’s going? Yeah. Yeah. So So, I mean, I don’t have a huge amount of experience in working with really small organizations. But what I can say is, this is where when I talked about having that clarity about what you want the customer experience to be like, and having those kind of frameworks is really important. Because the consistency of language, how you respond, needs to needs to be the same, right? So somebody who’s in a marketing function, operating with the same language lexicon brand guidelines to the same somebody who’s, who’s using in customer customer service as well. So I think that’s, that’s the key thing to have that to get that consistency piece in there as well. What’s also interesting is that with the emergence of technology, you’ve also got this world of AI coming in that’s looking to auto respond. So making sure if you’re using those kind of tools that you’ve, again, you’ve got the right brand guidelines in and it’s using the same right tone of voice and all those kind of things. So, you know, those are just a couple of thoughts. And like I said, I don’t have a huge amount of experience in there. But I think we take a step back, it’s just really that whole communication skills piece. Again, you know, you’re just it’s human to human, whether it comes across in a complaint or not, you know, sometimes we can get, you know, startled, because how do I handle this, but it’s, we communicate with another human being. So it’s just analyzing what’s been said to you, dissecting it, and responding as humanly as you can. Now, I know there are certain industries where they don’t like to say sorry, because it’s an admission of guilt. You know, there are some brand lines like that. And I’m sure in those companies, you’ll have some customer service training that will tell you where that organization sits. But I’m just a fan of, you might not be able to apologize for the thing that happened. But you can apologize for the way that somebody was made to feel. Or you can acknowledge straight up, we’ve got we doesn’t sound like we’ve got everything right here. Let me go and investigate what’s going on. And sometimes that’s just as much as needed, you know, there are. Okay, look, a quick a quick rundown, right. So I’m doing this off the cuff, there are kind of four broad buckets of types of people, I say types of preferences that people have, we have all four, but most of us have one or two prominent styles of wanting. So there are some people that for them, the most important thing is empathy, connection, and people. So the way you’d respond to them is to speak to that, and the clues would be in the language that they write in their response to you. So to talk about how they felt the impact you had on them, the impact you had on their people. So you want to reply, and try and connect in the same language. Then there are then there are other people that are very logical thinkers that are very structured, it’s about detail. Again, you’ll know them, because when they write to you, their, their, their letter will be that long, with lots of bullet points and lots of structure. So you need to take the time to respond in that structured way. Then you’ve got people that are very much more about the action, what they want is, it’s speed is of the essence, I want you to show me that you’re in control. And I want to show me that you’re taking action. And there are people that there are others that have a preference, which is much more about, okay, I want you to be positive. Yes, I want to do all those things, but positive, give my options, tell me about possibility, and all those kind of things. And you can pick those out through the language that people use. And if you can respond to people in the way that they’ve written to you, you build greater rapport. And you know, you’ve got a better a better chance of connecting with them. Sorry, I know we went off slightly of tangent, but it just seems an interesting thing to share. That’s, that’s the kind of thing that
Speaker 1: even just as a framework, you know, for folks to be able to look in and go, okay, maybe through this lens, what outcome is desirable in this circumstance, I find that really useful, and something that actually I could implement as well, you know, so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. And I can, I can see in the questions, Phelia has just referenced insight discovery. Yeah, that’s a really great framework. So if any of you using insights, or SDI, or any of those, any of those kind of personality things, they tend to be based on the same Jungian psychology that can give you sort of similar outcome. But yeah,
Speaker 1: great frameworks. Thank you. That’s really useful. As I say, that friction point or that bumping together point, which, you know, particularly those in smaller teams may experience is really useful. And folks, I can see that there’s nine open questions. Some have been answered. Some have not. And so I’m going to try to get closer to your questions at this point. But if you see any that you really like in the q&a box right now, please give them a thumbs up, because that will mean that I know those are the ones you want me to prioritize. As, as Nicola says, as well, you know, these things do go wrong. Nicola said, I wonder what style of email CrowdStrike sent out last week. You know, a tricky situation.
Speaker 2: Well, if they were using Microsoft, they might not be able to send any email out.
Speaker 1: That’s a very fair point. A very fair point. Let’s say I’m going to stay in the smaller territory, even though I appreciate this isn’t necessarily a wheelhouse, just because I think it’s a really good question from Kat. And it may be that you can speak to some principles rather than specific advice. Sure. And Kat asks, it feels like smaller brands who are inherently I know, sorry, I’ve lost that question. Here we go. It’s actually from anonymous, we’ll come back to Kat. We get the question from anonymous, he said, trying to encourage people to consider the customer experience at every customer point across a business feels like a huge challenge, especially when teams work in silos. Any tips on where to start? And the caveat here is as a small two person marketing team. But I think, you know, if we take that question, then sort of say any question, any ideas on where to start if we’re looking to what?
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So when you’re when you’re when there’s just a couple of you completely, you know, bandwidthing and all that kind of comes into it, right. So I think there’s two things that come to mind. One is breaking it down to smaller chunks and maybe focusing on a couple of areas that are the most impactful. That doesn’t mean the others aren’t, but there are points in the journey that are maybe that require the most attention. So focusing on them. The second thing that I’m going to say is this is where the power of storytelling really comes through, helping to join the dots through because people don’t always understand the interdependencies and unintended consequences of things that happen in isolation in their team. So somebody that makes a decision. So I’ll give you a real life example. I was with the housing association. And there was a problem with a complaint. And the individual dealing with the complaint was going backward and forward with a supplier trying to renegotiate the cost of getting the roof done. But the time taken got to the customer to the point where they escalated to the regulator and the regulator ended up awarding them compensation, which was four times the value of what it would have cost to fix the roof in the first place. Now that individual in their own slice of their pie were doing the right thing because they were driven by their KPOs to do that. But when you when you zoom out and give people the bigger story in the big picture, that’s how people realize where their contribution makes sense. It’s like, it’s like we’re all trying to put together a jigsaw, but somebody has taken the box and thrown the lid away. And we’re all trying to put the pieces together. And we know that there are tactics about we will start with the corner and the edges, you’re probably more likely able to put it together. But you’ll never get to the full picture if you don’t have that zoom out ability. So part of the role is being able to help people to zoom out to say, look, these interactions all matter, because when this happens, this happens, and this happens, this is the big impact, you know, we get customers that return products, or they cancel their subscription, or, you know, it costs us money to fix this, or those kind of things, and really be able to link it back. So that’s the that’s the narrative in the storytelling, you know, getting out of just data and tables, but really telling that, that kind of playback and story is really important.
Speaker 1: That’s so useful, because it strikes me that that as an answer, I don’t think I appreciate before we came into today’s session, how much you, you know, your experience of what you do actually links together the respective departments, and can kind of speak to all of that. But what is interesting is that, you know, as we’ve spoken to finance folks, as we’ve spoken to sales folks, as we’ll speak to the CEO next week, you know, kind of bringing together those things, everyone has their own language to speak. But if you can speak those languages, and you understand the impact, and you’re able to offer that zoom out capability, one of the reasons for the series is to kind of, I don’t want to say boost the power of marketing, but you know, certainly, as we speak about having a consistent brand experience,
Speaker 2: that’s what marketers want to do. So yeah, and, and I think, I think, you know, this, it is about boosting the power of marketing, but boosting it in a way that more than marketeers can use the power of it. So I remember when I worked in a contact centre, every so often, the marketing team said, Can you ask this question on the call and collect this data. But that’s all we got. We never got the explanation as to why what that data will do how that fits the business objective. So then you just become transactional about it. So you go, Oh, is it really going to matter if I asked them about whether they prefer email, text, or, you know, a phone call for their marketing preferences? Does it really matter? I’ll just tick whichever one or just won’t ask the question or whatever the thing might be. And so but when you explain to somebody to go, actually, the reason why we want to ask why we want you to ask this is because of this. And if we get this, it helps us achieve this objective, which aligns to the bigger prize, which is here. So everyone has a line of sight, and then they understand the importance of why you want that data or why you want to capture something or whatever the thing might be. So it is really about that zooming out and helping people because to your point, we’re so busy, we’re putting out fires, we’re here with the stuff that we’ve got to work on, we don’t get the chance to step back and zoom out. And that’s
Speaker 1: what this is really about. It’s like, it’s like maths, isn’t it? You know, where people sort of say this is the answer, but they don’t tell you why you’re doing it. And I remember in a different world, when I worked in an agency doing a very similar thing, you know, quite regularly, I would go to our designer who eventually I decided didn’t like me very much. But this, she actually didn’t not like me. But the thing that I kept on doing with her was saying, we need a brochure, or we need a leaflet or whatever. And to your point, you know, that idea of going, here’s the problem we’re having, you know, and can you help me craft the solution? This is, you know, not just customer experience, this is everything, right? This is working with people. Yeah. Yeah. Why a thing is happening, then it gives a purpose. Yeah. Empathy, and they can, yeah. You know, which is, yeah, endlessly useful and such an important skill, right? Yeah. We complain all the time as marketers about being the colour in department, but if we’re doing the same to other departments, you know, yeah, it’s not good. And so, yeah, really useful. Thank you for that reminder, mate, because I think that goes a long way to helping folks interact with each other. Let’s keep going with questions from the community, because fundamentally, everyone watching today are the most important people. So let’s, let’s do that. So the next question, again, comes from anonymous. So it’s either one person asking lots of really good questions, or several people who just don’t want to answer. That’s okay. Anonymous says, would you be happy to share any examples of some creative CX implementations that truly differentiate a brand? Which is example questions are always really tricky, because like, you feel like you’re put on the spot with with examples.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I’m just, I’m just trying to think of ones that I can share. Well, can we come back? Can we come back to that one? Yes. Okay. I’ll let that sit in my head for
Speaker 1: a bit. And I’ll come back to it. I love that. Okay. So the next one comes from Kat, which is one that we started earlier. And so Kat asks, it feels like smaller brands are inherently better at CX, likely because they are closer to the customer. What do you think causes brands to lose that advantage as they grow? So that it appears that big brands don’t care about their
Speaker 2: customers? Oh, good question. I think it does become harder, the bigger, the bigger business becomes like that, you know, the more departments you have, the more disparate you are, the more sites you have, you know, it’s a it’s a it’s a kind of product. And then because and then I think it’s also about where it features in the conversation. In most board meetings, the agenda would go, let’s talk about the finances. Let’s talk about sales. Let’s talk about marketing. Let’s talk about operations. We might talk about health and safety, legal, and then customer will be, oh, should we just talk about the contact center quickly about what’s going on. So the quality of the conversation in the organization really drives what that is. And so it’s, it’s bandwidth, it’s importance, it’s size, I think, one of the challenges that that customer experience has, as a discipline, is that it’s about farming for tomorrow, not for today. So the results that you’re driving don’t hit the immediate P&L. And often the challenge in big businesses is about what’s the immediate impact on P&L, because it’s shareholders that you’re delivering for if you’re a PLC, it’s about hitting the end of year forecast, the quarterly numbers and all of those things, which are true in a smaller organization, but in a bigger one, it has, you know, it’s at scale. And so there’s that immediacy thing about we just focus on the stuff that can make a difference now. So you know, let’s spend more money on marketing to get more leads in that we know, you know, that will tend to sales, and not spending enough time focusing on what how do we keep the customers we have. And part of that is because, again, this whole call is going to be full of my little catchphrases. People don’t people don’t change until the pain of changing the sex, staying the same is greater than the pain of changing. And what I mean by that is, unless you feel the pain in your organization of poor experience, you’re not motivated to fix it. And so if you’ve got things that our customers are being driven away, but at volume, you’re still filling the top of the funnel in with one time purchases. If it’s not making a difference right now, it can wait. So people push it out. And it doesn’t become important. Therefore, it doesn’t feature in the conversation. Think of the smaller organization, you feel the pinch more immediately. If those sales aren’t coming in, you know, if the review start making an impact, because you haven’t got the scale and the volume of transactions coming in. And so therefore, it’s much more, it’s felt faster, you know, that latency between when the pain happens, and when you feel it is is bigger in a big organization than it is in a smaller organization most of the time.
Speaker 1: I love that. Super useful. And I think you’re right. It’s, you know, most of us probably don’t have a pipeline that looks beyond the next sort of six to 12 months. I wouldn’t have thought,
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, exactly. Three months, you know, exactly. And I’m sorry, Kat’s just put a comment on there about reminding people that no complaints doesn’t mean happy customers. She’s absolutely right. One of the silent, one of the silent killers in your business is not the complaints. So if you think about where you’re here from, hearing about hearing people that love your products and services, great, because you get really good value data. Here are the people that have been bothered to complain, because you’ve done something wrong is really interesting and helpful. But lots of businesses have a group of customers in the middle that experience a seven out of 10, or a six out of 10, which is not bad enough for them to complain, but it’s not good enough for them to recommend either. So all they do is they open leave and go to your competitors, they won’t feature in your complaints data, they won’t feature in your NPS data. But yeah, they’ve tried your products once, twice, or whatever, they just become silent leavers, exactly as Kat said. So, you know, that’s, that’s, I think, a bit of a blind spot in organisations that don’t pay enough attention to that.
Speaker 1: That’s really fascinating. And so Louise’s pop in the chat here, how do you track those seven out of 10s? But I would also add to that, where do you place your energy when it comes to retention? You know, maybe it’s different for every business, but do you have a philosophy, you know, do you double down on the nines and the 10s out of 10s? Or do you spend more time on the…
Speaker 2: It’s, there’s no simple answer to it. Unfortunately, Joe, I wish I could give you our focus. I think, I think if you base it on, if you base it on the following two or three things, when you ask most people what’s been their best customer experience, most stories start with, I was dealing with this company, this went wrong, they fixed it, and this is what they did for me. And that this is what they did for me is normally how it made them feel, how they were treated in that process. So there is, there is definitely currency and value in the customer recovery piece when you do something wrong. I suppose the challenge is the gap between when that goes wrong and how long you leave it to recover. So I’ll share another story if I may. A friend of mine shopped at a well-known high street supermarket, one of the big brands. She shopped and she would spend about 200 to 250 pounds a week on shopping. And it would always be delivered. And she had a fast pass thing that allowed her to book slots, right? So the three data points there already. Her delivery, she’s been using it for five years, same sort of pattern. And what happened was that her, recently, one of her deliveries didn’t go to plan. The long story short, she, back and forth with the contact centre, didn’t go to plan. So she decided to take a business elsewhere. She went to a competitor, she cancelled her fast pass, she stopped spending. And she, you know, she moved to a competitor. Now the supermarket that she left had the data points of the spend suddenly stopping. And she was a customer of their loyalty programme, so they would have seen the associated data. They’ve got the data point that says she’s also cancelled her direct debit or things for her fast pass. They’ve got the data point that says this customer called our contact centre at some point. But all of those sit in different data points in different teams. So no one’s triangulated them together to make a recovery call. It’s too late now, she’s moved on, she moved to another provider. But had that call come within 24 hours, somebody went, oh my God, this customer has cancelled this, this has happened, that might have been a recovery. So that’s kind of part of the challenge, definitely the recovery. I think focusing on that, focusing on those moments and designing your service that those seven out of 10s and eight out of 10s are easily turned into nines and tens. And the easily turned into doesn’t take a lot, Joe. It’s more about how people are treated. Remember customer experiences, it’s memory, right? It’s emotion. And so those simple things. So when I’ve been to restaurants where the food’s been fantastic, the venue’s been great, but you’re left a little bit short, because actually the service wasn’t quite up to scratch. Little things that they missed, little things that they could have done, that again, wouldn’t have cost them a lot of money or no money whatsoever. And it’s those things that I think it’s about when you empower your teams on the front line and those executing service, it’s giving them the empowerment to do those things that will do that. So there isn’t really an easy way of tracking the seven out of 10s. It shows up a bit in your NPS data and stuff, but I think using the other feedback tools that we talked about earlier about unstructured data analysis, looking at social media, looking at online reviews, start to give you some intelligence that you can see the kind
Speaker 1: of things that they say. I love that. Thank you. That’s so useful. It strikes me as it’s being processed through my marketing brain. And sometimes I feel a bit guilty about sort of processing things in this way, but these are your opportunities for user generated content as well, right? So something goes really right. So for example, we use the example of the Stanley Cups where ice cubes remained cold in someone’s Stanley Cup, even though their car caught fire and the Stanley Cup remained. And so they decided to replace their customer’s car. I think it was like a $20,000 expense or whatever. And that went around the world as a viral moment. But like Stanley has gone like crazy. You got another example like the North Face who I think someone complained that their jacket wasn’t waterproof enough. And North Face kind of went a bit crazy with it. They helicoptered out a new waterproof jacket to this person. I don’t think it has to be that far. You know, it can be those little, it can be the little gestures exactly to your point, but if you can take them back to one to the other. Yeah, absolutely. And if we dial it back down to a
Speaker 2: one person business, if some of the guys and girls on here are one man marketing team, self-employed, like right now, you’re all having a customer experience of me. Like that’s what’s happening. This interaction is telling you about me, my values, what I stand for. You know, it’s not necessarily about what I know, but you’re getting a feeling from me of the kind of person I am. And if I could see you, then I would get the same about you, not you, Joe, but everybody else, right? So, and so some of it is as simple as in that interaction, showing up the best you can and being that person. And sometimes like I would do with certain clients or conversation to have, they’ll mention a book or something and I’ll go, do you know what? I’ll just send them that article or buy that book and I’ll send it to them. But I don’t do it for every client. And it’s not because I don’t value those clients. It’s just when it feels like the right thing to do. But it’s when you give your people that freedom to be able to do that and make that choice and go actually the right thing to do was this. So yeah, you know, those things are brilliant. The legendary, you hear these great stories on social media about when people do heroic things and they all do add value to the brand. But the consistency and doing it day in, day out and just giving people that real basics about, you know, do what you say you’re going to do, do it in the way you say you’re going to do it. That is the bedrock of all great customer experience.
Speaker 1: That would be such a fabulous way to end it. And we are towards the end of the session. I need to loop back to that question that we came to about 10 minutes ago. Yes. Yeah. You had an idea that struck you. Otherwise, it’s all good because that was that was a beautiful last sentence
Speaker 2: as well. Yeah, I’m just trying to think about some of these some things. I mean, again, just building on what we’ve just said that I’ve they’re not necessarily deliberate things that we’ve designed in to say that this you must do this when this happens, but it’s more to do when we’ve given people the framework. So I’m with this organization already, but I know people like if you go to prep there, people are empowered to be able to give you a free coffee or a free donut or do something for you in that moment if they wish to do so. I know that when we did when I was working in home finance in a bank, we gave people cards that they could send to customers just to say, you know, welcome to your new home if they felt like they wanted to do that from that from that perspective. It was more about putting in that culture and framework that allowed people to use their own judgment and kind of with the confidence that this is the right thing to do for the organization that would that’s more that’s more the kind of thing that really delivers those killer moments. So in all those examples of North Face and Stanley Cup and all of those, the person would have made that decision because they would have been confident that their brand would have been OK with that. Like, I’m not sure that if I was at National Express and somebody I tell you what, we’ll just ship them out a brand new coach, £250,000. I don’t think that would have gone down very well. But equally, if somebody said, listen, this customer’s had an awful journey, I’m going to send them some flowers and say, I’m really sorry and do that. And that’s great. But that was the freedom that we gave people within that framework.
Speaker 1: I really love that. And it goes so far. I know that James, my co-founder, will be screaming at the screen right now about his experiences working for house house movers and, you know, very, very similar. You know, if they broke something, they replaced it, you know, and it’s basics, but it’s true. Yeah. Anyway, we’ve had our hour and you’ve been outstanding. So thank you very much. Oh, you’re welcome. Thank you. A 10 out of 10 MPS rating from Rachel earlier. Thanks, Rachel. Absolutely love the session. And so much more. We’ve got a cat saying I love today as well. So thank you, mate. And folks, I appreciate we’re getting towards summer holidays now. We’re in summer holidays today. So it’s, it is wind down time. But we have one last session before we we head off on our summer breaks. And that’s next week, with what marketers need to know about CEOs and how they think about marketing. Be the final session in this series about us looking at other departments. So if you can make it, it’ll be an absolute joy to have you while you all say just lovely, lovely things to you there, Renee. So you’ve done very well. With all that said, thank you all very, very much for taking the time today. You’re all absolute legends. Also, a big thank you to Cambridge Marketing College for being the featured sponsor this week, as well as the rest of our sponsors, all of whom will spend a lot of time speaking about in future weeks. With all that said, hopefully see you next week for the last session before our summer break. Renee, thank you very much. And thank you to everyone for making
Speaker 2: today. I’ve just popped my LinkedIn, LinkedIn, if anybody wants to connect and follow up on anything,
Speaker 1: then feel free to reach out. We’ll do that in the follow up email as well. So we’ll get that all sorted. All that said, take care. See you soon.