Agency and client relationships: Gill Huber on pitching, AI and staying in it for the long run

Hello, everybody. It's so lovely to see you here today. Thank you all so, so much for taking the time. A big, big hello to Will, to Ashley, to Anne Marie, to Rose, to Erica, to Abby, and quite a few more of you saying hello in the chat. If you haven't already, do pop in the chat feature where you're watching from is always fabulous, to see so many of you. So a big hello to Nicole and to, James, to Claire, Abina, Simon, Chantelle. What a treat, to have you in our company today. Thank you for taking the time. So today we have something super special, so let's get introducing it. Today kicks off a brand new collaboration for The Marketing Meetup over the next four weeks with a hundred and three year old institution in Wackle, which is just incredible. I I feel pretty, privileged to be part of this and and sort of have the opportunity to work with WACL. So WACL stands for Women in Advertising and Communications Leadership. It's a network of over three hundred and fifty senior women in advertising, marketing, tech, and communications. Its mission is to accelerate gender equality for the benefit of all, with the ambition to achieve fifty percent female CEOs in the industry, which is incredible. As I say, they've been going for one hundred and three years, so to match that with the Market to Meetup, who've been over for ten years, is really quite special. I won't do this every week because we're going be collaborating over the next four weeks. But I do want to say a big, big shout out to Joe Royce, who's peering in the bottom right corner there, who's brought together this collaboration between us. Honestly, without Joe, who's incredible, this wouldn't happen. So thank you very much, Joe, and, thrilled to bits to be working together on this collaboration. So today, we're gonna be, speaking about something really close to the heart of, I think, a lot of people. Our guest is Jill Huber, from ingenuity plus. So, I haven't written the bio for today. I'm gonna read it from a friend. So Jill is described as this, having spent her career at the intersection of brands, agencies, and the broader marketing community, Jill's expertise, knowledge base, and network is genuinely a rare and brilliant thing. But what makes Jill special to those who work with her is that she uses all of the above with great generosity. She's a connector in the truest sense. She's a radiator, never a drain. And she's exactly the type of person who makes every room better with her presence. And on a very practical level, Jill speaks to hundreds and hundreds of agencies regularly, understanding the pitching process, what makes agencies and client relationships work. And so that's what we're gonna be focused on today. Today, we'll operate as a q and a. So I have a bunch of questions primed so we make sure that we get the objectives we laid out sorted right from the beginning. But if you have questions, do drop them into the q and a feature. That would be very much appreciated. Before we get started, I wanna say a final thank you to our sponsors. So this week's featured sponsor is a company called Planable. Now I'm going be speaking actually at an event after, today's session with Planable in between Ross Simmons and Rand Fishkin, all about breaking down silos in marketing, departments and beyond. The focus is very much on generative search, so if you'd like to be there, there's a QR code on screen. We'll share it again later as well. Finally, finally, a big thank you to all of our sponsors. So we have Canva, Wistia, Frontify, Cambridge Marketing College, Prismic and Planable. They're all incredible companies run by incredible people. I didn't mean to start the video again there. I meant to take my slides off screen. So that was well. But with all that said, a big thank you to Sam, to Ellsworth, to Jackie, to Victoria, and so many more, for saying hello, in the chat. Right. That's the introduction done. So, Jill, it's so lovely to spend the time. Thank you for being just, like, absolutely heroic and really nice to spend time with as well as really smart and everything that goes with it. Thank you so much. Absolute pleasure to be here. Love the over sell. I don't feel clever or smart right now, but I'm really looking forward to speaking to Jen. Absolute big thanks to Joe, who made all this happen, who does a lot of amazing things with that, Wackle, and generally is one of my favorite people. So it's an absolute pleasure to be here. And Joe, absolutely lovely to talk to you. Thank you. Bless you. Bless you. Big shout out to Joe Royce. Right, let's get going with the questions. So I've broken it roughly down into three sections. So we've got like overall landscape for agency client stuff. We've got what clients want from agencies and then what agencies want clients. So let's start overall landscape. And the context for this is that you do regular pulse checks with over two fifty marketing directors of some of the most incredible companies around, every quarter, I think I'm what he's saying. And it's not just London centric, which I think is important for the folks watching in because, like, we don't wanna just sort of give the impression big, bad I mean, I think it's the largest longitudinal study, which I always say, thinking I'm not entirely sure what that means, but it is a good study. And we have been doing it for six quarters. So it's two fifty marketing director CMOs and above level. If any of you have ever been involved in it because it's anonymous, it'd be great to hear from you. And the regionality, budget spends are all a mix. So it's not just the big spenders, it's the whole point is us to get a real understanding of what's going on in the overall marketplace. Our study is based in the UK, so that's been really interesting. And what we have done over the years is asked some same questions. So we always ask the same questions about whether someone's gonna pitch or not, or what their frustrations are, potentially their agencies. And then other quarters, we also focus on different things. So the last quarter, we also asked around AI, unsurprisingly, having sort of touched on it before. But, yeah, the budgets and it's also we look at time and role, time and company, and market upon size, there's a bit of a stretch. So what we try and do is not just keep it to the big spenders, because there's a whole market out there. There's twenty five thousand plus marketing agencies out there, and numbers of clients are rising as well. So it's a really interesting study and allows us sort of to have a bit of a dipstick on what's going on in the world, hopefully. And helps us when brands so my front door tends to be brands come and speak to us. My background is agencies as well as brands. And then maybe seven or eight years ago, I entered this tiny sliver of the world, which helps brands and agencies come together. And our ethos is about getting those brands and agencies to come together, stay together importantly, and grow together. That's what we talk about when engineers as a group talk about connecting the marketing world. So my viewpoint is very much looking at what a brand needs, but also who are the right agencies to work with them, because you want to be sure that everyone is set up for success and set up for long term success. So I think in terms of numbers, spend will increase, will exceed fifty billion for the first time in twenty twenty six, alongside the numbers of agencies continuing to rise in terms, as I talked about, that twenty five thousand plus agencies operating in the UK. So there's a lot of agencies out there and a lot of budget being spent, but of course, increase of discipline that's being used. So that's what we're seeing. There it was. And also, I'd say it's really fair to say the budgets and pressure on marketers is also growing. They're being asked to do more potentially with fewer people. But budgets are growing. Their roles are getting more complex as well. Thank you. I mean, so much there already, which is fabulous, which is why exactly you're the right person to speak to as well. So thank you for speaking through that there, Joe. I guess to take a step back to a certain extent, but it feels like the numbers that you just shared there feel like quite an optimistic space. But I guess, like, if I'm doing, a vibe check, just a vibe check, you know, purely on LinkedIn stuff, sort of speaking to marketers, speaking about how hard it's been to run an agency over the past twelve months. I'm curious, with the numbers, but also the day to day conversations. Are you actually seeing this in the agency space? Like, if you were to give an overall summary of the agency space generally, what's your So reply? Yeah. Look. I I think agencies have been under a great deal of pressure over the last few years, reflecting marketers being under a lot of pressure. We've obviously seen a lot of consolidation, which has brought its own pressures. I'd say, actually, I think some numbers reading the IPA, I think creative agencies may have reduced staff level of media. Agencies may have gone up. Don't quote me on that without checking the IPA number, but I think that's the case. Though what I'm always heartened by is the startup of agencies as well. So what you are seeing even in this year or last year, you've got agencies like Ace of Hearts or Art and Creative Space who are starting in this environment, which means the reason I really like it is there's obviously still a lot of love for the craft and the business that we're doing. And what might be the case is people want to do it in a different way than how they were doing it. I'm not saying it's easy starting an agency. Never easy at all, but there is still love for that and people want to do things in a slightly different way. And I'd also say there's brands who are starting. I remember years ago when people would look at these are the brands and Facebook didn't exist, Uber didn't exist. I suspect that's also brands and services that are existing, that brands are growing into now that didn't exist ten years ago. So I am weirdly a cynical optimist, so I always think that the good will come. But there's absolutely no lie that agencies are feeling a lot of pressure and are working very hard. And I know it's difficult in the environment we're in for people to make decisions and commit budgets and all of that does have an impact. So I'm not sort of Pollyanna or anything. It's all brilliant. I think people are working harder than ever and it is tough on both sides. For sure. And I think that on both sides is like a really good point. So some behind the scenes for folks watching this that I had the opportunity to catch up with you last week. And I asked the question similar to that and you were actually, you weren't defensive of clients, but you did make a good point that nobody's setting out to do a bad job. And actually, the client side are under great pressure as well, as you've just sort of made the point about, which I think is a really interesting part of this conversation, because I think I more often hear from the agency side than I do the client side, maybe because And so It's much more public and there's, I guess, more of them. Looked, one of the questions we asked is about accountability. And seventy percent of senior marketers said the level of accountability on them to personally prove marketing budget is greater than it was two years ago. So there is absolutely an accountability and demonstrate the marketing of marketing, and then that's working for your brands. And again, that's something agencies are really well equipped to support with. But it's interesting a marketer's feeling that personally as well, not just on the business. And obviously, with some marketing businesses, they don't necessarily have huge teams. Sometimes the CMO or the head of marketing might not be part of the PLT. So it can be a lonelier existence, and you might necessarily think they've got a lot of partners to work with, and this is why there's definitely an appetite for true partnership. But they also have to demonstrate to the sales department, commercial partners that the the business is being is in being invested in marketing rather than just spent by marketing. So absolutely, I think the pressure's on marketers as well to demonstrate what they're doing is making a returnable difference and a positive for their businesses. Nice. I love that. I think it's such an important point. So thank you for speaking to it, because I think we can get lost here. I imagine we'll spend a little bit more time in the agencies than we do the client side possibly, probably because of the makeup of the signups today. But I think it's such an important point to make. So thank you for raising it because I'm sure it's proper lived experience for the people watching in as well. I'm sure we've all felt it to a certain extent. Yeah. And I think the other thing we talk about is there's not actually When I say that personal responsibility to demonstrate your business is growing, another question we ask is about what reflects your organization's view of that impact. So it could be long term growth. It could be a combination of a lot of performance and brand metrics. It could be short term commercial impact, and it can be business outcomes. And when we do the did the survey, I'm just looking at the numbers above my head. It was quite evenly split in terms of what the definition stand for for them. So it's not as easy as everyone wants this, therefore deliver that. And I understand for an agency that is also a challenge because you need to understand what are there what you're trying to prove. Now, obviously, when you had to push comes to shove, shove short term metrics are often commercial results are often what they will will go for. But again, that difference was sort of ten percent. It wasn't like ninety percent of people are just, I want short term versus long term. So really establishing what the business's goals are is not clean, is very easy to pick. And that's what agencies and brands need to also probably spend their time with each other, understanding what are the metrics that are gonna help that marketer prove the value of what they're doing and when as well, because you need to know when those results are. And I know we can measure everything nowadays, and then it doesn't always mean that they're the right things to measure. So it's establishing what is important. Totally. We we we can and we can't as has always been the case, right? I think everyone says that we can. I'm not sure that we actually can. I'll take one question that's coming from Patrick. And then Jo Royce has suggested a fabulous question, but I think it might come into It better not be difficult, Jo Royce. I'm sure it is. I'm sure it's horrendous. But we've got this one from Patrick, which I think fits into the agency landscape sort of question. So, like, we'll take that before we dive deeper into the clients from agencies. So Patrick's asking, are agencies under pressure from the rise of fractional roles too? Does a fractional CFO sort of cover off what a strategic agency previously may have offered? And I appreciate you may not necessarily have data to sort of back this up, but, like, curious about that sort of rise of the fractional and sort of, like, how that sort of has impacted the landscape from your anecdotal opinion rather than sort of like expecting you to have a number at your fingertips. Yeah, I really don't have a number for that. I think that is a really interesting question because it's I don't think it is as clean-cut as that. I think one of the things that when I'm advising brands about their finding their perfect agency partner or also working with their existing partners better, what I think agencies deliver is the outside in view for brands, and that's really important. And I think it's important for every part of the businesses to respect the strengths and abilities of their partners, both client and brand side. Agencies have a wealth of knowledge. They have a wealth of different category experience. We all I'm sure my age now, we've all read Eat Big Fish when it first came out and understanding that and different people to work on stuff. So it's not a like for like now. You're absolutely right. Some people might see it that way. I think fractional CMOs probably offer a different They might offer a different perspective. They might be sharing that knowledge. They definitely, some of them may have very good strategic input, but I would be wary of it being seen in that way because you know, the strategic agencies, that that is that wealth of expertise, personality, culture, knowledge that they're there to do on a project. So I don't I I would never view it as a like for like split. Correct. At what a fractional CMO will definitely bring is their expertise and knowledge. But again, it's the setup of what that relationship is with that brand. And it definitely, as with all things, there's not one size fits all and what they're being asked to do and what their remit is as well. I love that. Well, that's so useful. So thank you for speaking to that because I think it even the differentiation not comparing apples to apples is useful straight off the bat. So thank you very much. Let's head into I'm sorry. One thing that might be worth always doing is getting those fractional CMOs to talk to you as an agency, because they will, say, have things that they can bring to you. So CMOs who are in between roles or offering fractional roles are definitely people worth hugely valuable speaking to and potentially working with you as a business. Absolutely. I mean, there's so many talented ones out there. They're fabulous. To use them as that resource, Fully agree. Let's head into what clients want from agencies. Because like you've recent Pulse report did focus on AI. And oh my goodness, AI is boring, but it's also so important that we do speak about this, particularly in the context of this conversation. So I'm going to leave this way open as a very wide question, so take it however you like. But how has AI changed the client expectations on agencies? What are you seeing them sort of change about? Yeah. No. And that is a way and and, again, what it will really depend is what a brand where in a brand's life cycle they are with AI, but they are absolutely expecting agencies to be to be using it and to be at the forefront of how they're using it. I think they spend about fifteen percent of their total marketing spend on AI initiatives. It is more, I would say, a hygiene factor now than ever it was before. So definitely, brands are expecting agencies to be understanding it, looking at it, coming to them with how It's sort of how they're using it. I'd say, probably near term expectation is not necessarily a future ambition, probably two, three years ago. So they're being pulled across all of the capabilities. Obviously, the greatest pressure is on those performance driven areas, such as targeting, optimization, predictive analytics. I think marketing leaders are thinking that agencies are using AI. Absolutely, there's capabilities, but it's understanding the sort of tangible improvements in performance. So agencies are talking about it, but they also want to see how they're really adopting and what those outcomes are going, what these outcomes are for those brands in that space. And then, I think agencies we're seeing are moving beyond expectation into those strategic integrated roles. So it's understanding how AI can help transform the sort of operational part of the business, which also leaves those agencies to be able to talk more strategically. So I think the other thing is AI is probably a bit of a factor in potentially in pitching, choosing your agency, performance of your agency. So it's no longer a nice to have, it is definitely a must have. But what brands will want to know is how are you as a business using AI? What are expectations? How do you want to use it? What's the opportunity? And what's the opportunity that you're then delivering for brands? And I'd also say for brands, it's understanding what are their principles for AI, having agreed set of principles, having agreed guardrails, what are you wanting to do? So it's, again, and I'm gonna say it's lot. It's not one size fits all. It's definitely they want to know, and they want to understand. They want to see it. But you also will need to know where they are because, again, some brands are talking Gen AI, some brands are looking at it more for performance, but it will it's certainly a factor and no longer sort of this is something coming down the road. It is a factor for them and how they're talking to their agencies and how potentially they might select and work with them moving forward. That's really interesting. Guess as a follow-up to that based on how you described it there, it feels like I'm thinking very specifically in the pitch process, and I don't know if this is the right way to think about it. But I can imagine sort of a year ago, agencies would rock up to a client, deliver a PowerPoint, and they may have a section on AI and how they use it, etcetera. I don't know whether this is a figurative example or a literal example. Like, are we now in a space where it's like the AI is sort of like integrated throughout the the the presentation? So it's not like here's a section on AI as a bolt on, but like this is it sort of laced throughout the entire process and this is how we speak about it now? Is that where the best thing is to start? I think it's I think it it it's you know, I and a bit like the digital sort of Yes. Or the section, and now it's absolutely integral. I don't think it's necessarily all the way there, but it's been what brands also expect is agency to be really transparent about their AI where they use no one's against using it. And actually, if it's if it's able to make vast improvements, great. So I think it really depends on what the ask is. It's not quite everywhere, but it's it's they really want you to be using it, understanding it, and transparent about how you're using it, I would say. And it's not in some ways, we had our last CMO Pulse, we had a panel about it, and we had various speakers for any, from Maryland attainments to DEFT. And Avis Budget, They all are using it differently, and they're all at different areas. And but they're all open and totally know that this needs to be something that's part of their whole marketing sort of ecosystem and using it well. Perfect. I love that. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And like, you know, I know that we say, for example, we've got Nicole in the chat today who works for a decent sized agency and Nicole has been banging the drum for sort of some of the stuff you've been speaking about, just every sort of like AI guidelines and this is how we use AI and sort of internal stuff for quite a long time. That's been endlessly useful as part of the conversation. Like having Yeah. Because I think different brands have different attitudes and permissions and what what they want to do. So as well as agencies will have. But I think brands definitely want you know, I I do want to hear how it can help them and their business. Totally. Hundred percent. Okay. Let's let's take a slightly different skew on AI before moving swiftly past it because I I don't want this to continue the conversation. But I guess a contrarian view to the thing which AI has enabled us to do. And maybe if I give an example that last week I spent my Friday building a sort of an app and a site that there was no way I would have been able to do before. It was a one pager sort of thing, but I would have had to sort of speak to a web developer in the past to even sort of begin to bring my vision to life. Now, I fully acknowledge that the website I built was way worse than if I brought a web developer in. I am not saying that it was good. But maybe this is the point, that people like me sort of feel like there's a gap between thought and execution that is shortened these days versus what would have existed before. So has AI in your mind sort of change the expectation about what agencies are there to produce. Again, we're sort of speaking very general terms what our agencies are here to do. But if AI has made execution cheap, what sort of things are clients willing to pay a premium for at this sort of period of time given they feel like they can sort of develop a web page in a way that they never could before? Is that clear as a question? Because it was quite meaningful. Yeah. It's that yeah. It's a brilliant question because I think everyone AI allows us all to do lots of things we couldn't do. And anyone who is on this call who's been in the marketing department of an agency, every single other person in the agency thinks they know how to do marketing. And everyone will succeed. So I get that. And what we have is tools and abilities to produce stuff. And that's great. And there's also the opportunity to quickly generate stuff to make decisions on. But at the back of that is the thinking, the people, because if everyone could do it, then you do end up with a sea of sameness. And so I think what agencies I'll go back to what agencies still bring. They bring that challenge in thinking. They bring that strategic thinking, and they bring that outside in thinking. So yes, you might be able to shortcut certain things in AI. Same with meetings we know for years, we can shortcut that tail and quickly translate things or things like that. That's brilliant, but you still need the good thinking behind that of both marketer and an agency coming together. So in some ways, there'll be lots of advantage and lots of speeding things up. And that means you'd spend more time on the thinking or you have more ideas. So again, so long as it's not just being used to If there's no thinking behind it, then mean, and I am not a creative. So in the same way, everyone And I've had this argument with someone I work with where no one's going to buy cookery books anymore. You can do it all in AI. That's just not true because I'm not a chef. And sometimes you need that thinking and those experiences. Nice. I love that. Thank you, Jill. I appreciate the ignorance in my question. Not at all. I don't know. Not at all, but like we've got Hannah, the very great Hannah Hooton in the chat sort of saying preach, preach Jill. So like I hope you know that you got a fan base sort of absolutely agreeing with what you're saying as well. So so thank you very much. Let's let's bring in a a great question that's coming from Nicole, if that's okay. Because I think it will it it just very eloquently speaks to a knob of a really big issue, which I think you will probably know a little bit about. And and luckily for me, I have some some data on this one, which is who once a media gal, always a media gal. I do like a bit of data. So I'll read it out for the benefit of your time, if that's okay. So Nicole just says, from your experience working with brands, what are the top reasons they give for ditching agencies? Is it more about performance, relationships breaking down, or both? And I'll let I'll zip there. No. No. It's a it's fantastic question because the reasons are one of the the things, again, we ask in our CMO pulse that we do once a quarter. And what's interesting about it? And I say this, and you might It sounds strange because I work as an intermediary, but I fundamentally believe old business is the most important business, almost more important than new business. So actually, your existing clients are hugely important and should be valued. And again, there may be lots of reasons, but we sort of ask them about what are your greater existing ways of working with your agencies. And it tends to be operational discipline. It is, with a lovely phrase, emotionally draining, but the work is good enough. I think that was number one. And then regularly missed deadlines, a caliber of agency employees not necessarily good enough, work not right first time enough at the time. Now there will be absolutely a lot of time reasons for this. We're not saying that there aren't, but that being able to meet the budget, do the work on time. I see this not just It's not creative agency versus a media agency, but often you might find people at clients, and they'll notice the mistakes, notice the challenges. So operational discipline is boring, but I also say this as ex account person is really important. A little tiny noticeable things make such a difference in keeping that going. So that tends to be, that's when they might talk to me. And again, engineers plus will, our businesses is not the answer to the picture. Now, what's the question? What's the challenge? Again, we'll also speak candidly with brands and make sure that both are set up well for success because you can't just bring a new agency on board if your ways of working aren't necessarily in the way they should be. So it is on both sides, but not always the sort of someone coming in just wanting their favorite agency or the works of it. It's all of those little things that really do add up, and that's what often they'll come to us and talk about. I love that. While I certainly wouldn't hold my work up as a pillar of operational excellence, I think certainly in maintaining the relationships that we have on the sort of B2B context at TMM, Like some of the littlest tips that we've sort of found useful is creating like a Slack channel, which doesn't feel like a real high lift for us and our clients, but then sort of just popping in quick wins quite regularly. So like, also we'll mention X today, you know, and stuff like that, which suddenly feels like there's a bit momentum behind the relationship and sort of it isn't like the big ta da moments. It's the sort of day to day stuff, which is like, I don't know, it seems to be the biggest unlocks for us in the most recent period. So I don't know whether that speaks to your answer, but it might be a small Is that and I think I can say Chantal, operational discipline is all those types of touches is what I mean. So overall operational discipline that meeting, you know, contact reports, meeting stuff, getting stuff done so everyone so there's trust on each side, working well with your partner agencies as well. It'd be another thing. You know, it's just the work's good enough, but it's a grind to get there is is what often comes back. That's challenge. You know what? It's so refreshing and lovely that given all the discourse on LinkedIn, that we're still coming back to the boring stuff. The boringly good stuff, this is the real Yeah. I mean, it's it's we are a peep we are a people business, and the work is made up of good people. Again, I don't no one is saying one's bad, one's good. It's just working in that in relationship. And I always say this, you can't over communicate. I'll say that now, and I'll prove prove wrong, I'm sure. But communicating between both things is really important. And you see it with really good long term brand agency partnerships. You know, take a McDonald's and O and D and Leo's. That's been going for years, and they've got really good operational discipline, really good respect for each other and the franchisees. And that works really well for everyone. Love that so much. Thank you so much for speaking to that. Really appreciate that. I'm gonna come to a question from Victoria actually off the back of this because I think there's there's a great point made here. But then I think maybe it speaks to some of your experience in getting to the place where both folks agree. We acknowledge the importance of operational excellence, one thing she said earlier as well was around goal setting and measurement. So Victoria is asking, why is there still misalignment between agency and brand and what to measure? For example, we find it hard to reach the goal of what is a shared definition of success. And so I guess the question is like, how do we get to that place? Because you must spend so much of your life trying to sort of create these joint understandings of goals between these respective agencies. Are there any sort of tips that you can offer to sort of get to that place? Think Victoria was in West London. I'm a West Londoner, so because whatever I'm gonna say is gonna sound frighteningly obvious. But fine, by the way. Obviously, it's great. Well, we talk with with in fact, we we work with we work with a a client a while ago who we helped find a creative and media agency, and they also had a PR agency, and and no one was working well with each other. So we actually spent some time understanding processes, putting in new process, and did a workshop with them all and the brands because we're all in it together. And that kind of shared briefing, shared definition of success for everyone. Now, obviously, media is going to judge it very different than creative for PR, social. But I always think shared ambition and really shared clarity on the business goals from the brand is the most important. And that's where being able to demonstrate how, what your particular discipline is doing to help deliver that and spending time, again, with client and the brand to understand. And we all talk about this with brands as well as talking the language of the CFO, talking the language of the boardroom. What are the demonstrations that actually show all of that sort of leadership team that marketing is working as opposed to necessarily you've delivered what you say you're going to deliver in terms of number of the ratings or or or getting some new copy made, which is hugely important, your role, but it needs to deliver to the overall task that marketing has. And that's always beyond advertising. They've got loads of other things going on. So it's understanding a language that you can all speak that really delivers that, as well as the other SLAs and all of those things, the element. But having skin in the game and really understanding the business goals, think, is hugely important and having sharing success and understanding that and being that partnership is where you see the best relationships happening. I know that sounds, again, a bit basic, but spend that time to understand what it is is success. What will make everyone in six months, a year's time, when you're all sort of sitting around doing a year end, there should be no surprise. It's a bit like a picture. There should be no necessary ta da. You should all be knowing what you're working towards and understand how close you are to delivering it. I love that and find it so useful. I think it reminded me when you were speaking it reminded me of a quote I heard recently which is semantics is never semantic in the sense that like people, two different people could say the word duck and get a very different image of the specific duck that they're thinking about in their mind. And I guess there must be so much power in the question of like, but what do you mean by that? Just asking that question. The question behind the question is always that. And I think it's one of those things that when you're starting in your career, you sort of If you're an agency, you sort of get asked something, and yes, and then you're more experienced about what's the question behind the question? What are they trying to prove rather than Because sometimes, what the metric that's being asked for isn't actually going to help demonstrate what you need to demonstrate. And it's about putting things in line. And again, it's being able to have those conversations. And again, you can have those conversations if you've got high trust and you're doing everything else you say you're going to do, when you're going to do. All of those things make when bad things happen or things aren't going smoothly, they've got high trust. If you're already on the back foot, that is always a difficult position to be I I love that. Thank you for returning to that point as well because, like, honestly, I think it's so strong and, like, I don't think we could say it possibly enough in in this chat. So, I I really appreciate you reinforcing that as well. You you've segued so perfectly. It's almost like you're late on it on purpose, we've got, if we head into the next section of like what agencies want from clients, because like inferred in your last answer was almost like a power dynamic that can exist, not always, but that can exist, That can make it quite hard for agencies to push back because they sort of come into this space and they're like, you're gonna give us money and money puts baby beans on the table and allows us to do the business that we want to do. But in the same instance, you can end up having a slightly horrible time if the power dynamic is so client side heavy. Now, think we've spoken to a lot of good stuff here, but like maybe just to call it out overtly with this question and sort of say, how do you avoid that power dynamic, when it comes to sort of the client holding all the power and the agency just sort of being beholden to their requests, which I've just seen play out lots and lots of times in our industry before? That's a really good question. And probably, I'm probably not gonna give as good an answer on that. I think it's been really clear on. So a lot of the time when we start, it's understanding what they need and potentially if you're in a PIP situation. So we spend a lot of time making sure we urge everyone to set the relationship relationship up for shared and continued success. So everyone should be winning out of a relationship. Now that's Obviously, there'll be a lot of powers that be having those conversations. And I think in those relationships, it's really been really clear what you're being asked to do, what you're going to do before a relationship's happening and being really clear on on what some Some businesses are better at saying no than others. Some people say yes to everything. And actually, that can become toxic. So I would say, for me, it's about having those There's two different things. There's the operational stuff. Are we meeting? Are we doing stuff on time? And then there's the bigger picture stuff. And you sometimes need to separate them a bit. What can often happens, you end up having meetings about the delivery and you never get onto the bigger stuff. So it's being able to carve that time out to talk about the overall relationship and demonstrate the value that you're bringing beyond doing the doing. And then understanding who is sort of woman or man marking each person on the side of the relationship because everyone has different if the CMO and the CEO are getting on really well, but there's fractions further down, it's really understanding the relationship all the way along and having mutual respect would be what I'd say. I know that's easy for me to say. When things are going, when people are under pressure, in fact, when we do our survey and we talk about whether people are going to pitch, it sometimes slightly seasonal that when people are feeling more under pressure, they're more likely to be thinking about whether I'm got the right relationship or not. So understanding When we talk with brands about this, understanding the key pressure times for those brows. Now, if you're in retail, the golden course is going to be key. But if you're in fitness, and as you put the last roast potato down on Boxing Day to mid Jan is your pressure point and up to there. So I think where agencies really need to think about and can have those conversations before you're in there about, this seems to be the big pressure point. How can we manage that? And it's, again, being on that front foot to understand rather than you're just getting the same service all year long. And then when everyone's a bit fraught and tense, that's when problems can happen. So it's overall looking at it, I would say, holistically. Again, I'm saying this. I've worked sometimes there's just the JFDI. We need to get on with it stuff. But it's being able to separate that and maybe different people having those different conversations. But, again, if you're doing the things on time, but it's asking the questions. So it's not just saying yes. It's why. How can I help? What might be more useful to you is this and all of that stuff, rather than if you do get in a position to saying yes, but you don't really know the rationale behind it. That's where I think problems often happen. I love that so much. Thank you so, so much. And, like, it's funny because as you were speaking I mean I do my best when chatting with folks to not formulate the next question while I'm speaking to them but I was gonna sort of like say the you know whether a QBR would have been the best sort of quarterly business review would have been that opportunity to do that big brain thinking outside the day to day. But actually I really appreciated your point there about like being more proactive about the calendar because actually that's a far more efficient way of sort of helping and sort of possibly because we know the same Valentine's Day happens the same time. Back to school happens. Again, we're all doing the business thinking. In fact, we ran a in previous iteration, a pitch for an agency for Christmas. So we briefed Christmas in May, I think even early March. But you know the periods that might be important to the brand, but you also have the period of buildup. And how can you think differently about how you can get ahead of that and help them understand or resource accordingly? But I also think, as Patrick said, questions, ask questions. Question behind it, you might already have the answer for and can demonstrate to them in an easier way than necessarily the information you're asking for. Love that. People don't always know what they don't know or have just been asked that by someone else as well. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Let's head into the next question about proposals because I know that it's such like a hot topic for so many folks. And we've got that horrible question from Joe Royce coming up, which is also on proposals. Ask. We run out of time, Joe. Bad luck. I'll ask a catchall question first, but then we'll come to Joe. So how can folks sort of escape the analyst requests for proposals? I mean, you see so many people describe several stages, the amount of investment that they put into sort of pitch processes, are multi phases, etcetera, etcetera. So, these agency processes can lead nowhere and it's really costly. I mean, how can agencies sort of, like, find new clients without sort of getting involved in this thing or or find an optimum solution for it? That is a really good question. And, again, there is not a one size fits all. And the things to think about, and again, Jo knows this, one of the things we have asked brands in our pulses, just to give you some context, is we've asked them what a pitch, how would they define a pitch? And there's four, so I have to read this because I am perimenopausal and can't remember everything. So one is full pitch, chemistry, tissues, the whole shebang. One might be providing a sort of curated recommendation of agencies to meet. Another might be a short pitch process of briefing. And then the other might be a series of chemistry meetings to you for a particular project. So when we ask that, the brands tend to be more evenly split when we first did it. And, actually, the last one, they were still they would split actually between full pitch process and provide being provided a list of recommendations. So that is incredible. It's two different schemes, and that's what brands are thinking. This is a pitch. We've also seen it when you're in it's some of the a brand will talk to you about an agency came and pitched to me and we're like, in a pitch for us. And I'm oh, But every meeting is kind of a pitch in that way. And it doesn't mean you have to be producing lots and lots of work. But I think one thing agencies, and agencies often talk about a pitch process. We ask them the same question that overwhelmingly, and I think I've got the number here, something that sixty plus percent said full pitch process. And then the second one they had is short pitch process. So I definitely think there's a disconnect in what people, what agencies think of pitches versus what brands can think of pitches. And brands are very open to different styles of pitches. We've run pitches in a day. We have run discovery set days with appointment as well as the full pitch process. What I would always say when I'm talking to a brand is we define the pitch process that suits what they need to see, the size of the prize, what they need to have to make a decision. So again, there shouldn't be one size fits all. Different disciplines require different structured pitches because there might not need be a need for tissue. It might be you're working with a strategic How do you think? Show me how you've done it with someone else. So I think there shouldn't be one size fits all. I'd also say so and I say this so I'm on an intermediary. So I'm I'm often brands come to us because they want advice on and support on either how to run a pitch or who are the best people to meet because we spend our our lives in this world. So, again, they're coming to us as an expert, and what they want from an expert for us is guidance, expertise, and a bespoke process. So already, my probably my data is going to be slightly skewed to the brands that are coming to But other ways of looking for business, obviously, people do use businesses to help them meet brands. There's speed dating. There's lots of different ways to do that. So it necessarily say one size fits all. But if you do find yourself in a pitch process that potentially isn't being run by an intermediary, it's asking all those questions. How many people? How many stages? What are the dates? Who's in it, what's the budget. And it's absolutely, ask all those questions before you agree to commit would be absolutely key. And then you making a decision as a business, whether this is one you want to commit to, can commit to, can win, importantly, and can work on. Because I will say there's huge strength. And I speak to lots of agencies every day, and they turn down some of the ones we're talking about, even though they'd be ideal, because it's not right for them. And that's such strength. And it means the ones they do go for, they're much more likely to win. And they're also don't want to bang on. They're not all committing to loads and loads of pitches and forgetting all of their current and existing clients, which, as I said, old business is probably the most important part of that business. So it's being mindful. And if it sounds like it's too many stages or it's messy or it's not right for you or there's too many people in it or you actually look, we just won two pieces of business or we're in the middle of producing a great Christmas campaign, don't commit to something unless you really think you can and want to win it would be my advice. So question, question, question, make sure you understand the rules of engagement. That's fabulous. Thank you so much, Jill. There's so much richness there. I truly say, I really appreciate all of that. We definitely got a social media post coming off the back of that, question alone. There's an awful lot there. Let's take the one from Joe Royce because it does relate to the pitch process. Some of it may have been covered off already, but really the crux of Joe's question is more about being found and sort of getting cut through. So Joe's asking for the solopreneurs and smaller agencies and consultants in the TMN community, how do you cut through? So how do you get to clients' radars to whether or not it's a full pitch as we described in the last answer or just being part of the process? How do smaller agencies sort of find themselves in the running and in the conversation for these kind of things? Okay. So that's, again, really good question. So that obviously are businesses that you can speak to who can support that. For me, it's about being really clear on what you're going for and making sure that you're having those conversations in those spaces. The pitch starts before the pitch starts. Before when you've read about it in a trade title, the ship has generally left dock. So it's about if there's certain categories or businesses, it's the work upfront. So it's being at the right places, writing the content, understanding about that category to get your voice out there. Yes. There are inevitably big pitch processes, but, again, it it really depends what what the ask is. A lot of the processes we run aren't for, there won't be just the big TV brand agencies. There'll be lots of there'll be a whole whole raft of it. Anything from an SEO agency to a brand agency, strategy agency. And that's where you will tend to find that the processes are are less onerous necessarily than the sort of some if they're looking for a big TV brand. For me, it's about getting your VoIP, build your fame, be easy to buy, and be hard to leave is kind of how I would look at it in terms of getting your name out there. And businesses like us and other interview, we spend our lives looking for agencies who are doing good work, agencies who've got an opinion, the people in there. Again, it always starts with the name above the door, but through a pitch process, it ends with the people who are getting me in my team. So good people can get noticed and go to the events, the opportunities where they can get their work out there. And then always use your brands as your ambassadors. All this business, and I'm being asked, and there'll be a WhatsApp group with a lot of marketers talking about who's good and who should I speak to. And you've got good brands. You're doing great work for. Get them talking about you as well is my advice there because they are your biggest advocate. But again, I remember when I worked at an agency, we really wanted to win a retailer. And I think it's about two years working on our retail knowledge and ability. So when something did drop, we were in a really good position to go for it rather than starting from a standing start. So I don't know if that helps, Jo, because that's quite a difficult question. But thank you. It's a great question. I think you gave a great answer. And part of it is good old positioning, part of it is good old marketing. But like I think there's some I know we we're all yeah, sometimes the marketing is because everyone's busy doing the work aren't they? Especially if you're a small business. Totally. I'm mindful that we've got less than five minutes left, Jill. So I mean, you've been, there's so much richness in your answers. So thank you very much for this past hour. There's a very practical question here that's come through from Mariel, who's asked when service level agreements should I think it's service level agreements. I might be getting my acronym That's why I'm reading it out, sorry. Be discussed before budgets are agreed or after. So for those my definition of service level agreements is like, this is what we're gonna do. This is what the budget is. This is what I'm gonna be reporting. Those kind of things, you probably have a much better definition than I will there, Jill. But is is that the kind of vibe that we're going for? Yeah. I think that well, I like that again, if I was going into a pitch process I would be asking in advance for what the budgets, what kind of work are you wanting to be produced in order to cost it appropriately, you know, understanding if it's production fees, media fees, things like that. But I kind of think you need to know a budget and what you're going to have to produce or deliver in advance of agreeing that now, and having real clarity on that. Again, that might be within a pitch process because you're gonna have to make some decisions. Firstly, if it is a big pitch process, you'll start with chemistries. And again, I say to all brands, chemistry works both ways. It's about understanding, do you want to speak to each other more? So chemistry is probably labor intensive, hopefully, for everyone, because you're talking about yourselves as an agency, which you can do maybe with a perspective on the brand. So at that stage, are you interested in knowing more? If you want to go forward, again, asking those questions, what are the expectations? We worked with a global brand recently, and that they were really clear on on their expectations and and making sure that it was managed appropriately because they don't want and, again, brands don't, I would say this, they want you to be struggling. No one wants anyone not to be being successful, but really getting that clarity on that. So I sort of say at the same time before and then as things change and develop. But, again, keeping on top of what it is you're delivering, what you're being asked to deliver. And the questions behind the questions, are you producing stuff that actually and by producing, I'm saying reports or things. Are they all useful? Are there other ways to do that? Is AI you know, all of those things keep iterating because, actually, your biggest asset are your people and your brains and your opinions as well. So what you wanna do is make that you're spending time on that. Love that so much. Thank you so, so much. Thank you. We'll do one last question, if possible, then I'll leave you for your important day of doing other things. So I'm going to bounce two questions that are planned into one thing really, which is one about money more than anything. So with your sort of bird's eye perspective, I know a lot of agencies who will sort of see long term retainers as the sort of the gold star if they can manage it. But in terms of business models and expectations around that, where are you seeing a lot of probably clients sort of scoping out where they're placing their budgets and the type of models which they enjoy working at, acknowledging there's so many different types of agency types that it's quite hard to answer. But like, from a general Yeah. I think I think it's yeah. No. It's interesting because yeah. Certainly, you you're more likely to have a a long, you know, a long term commitment with certain you might have with certain disciplines because you want that partnership and you need that investment over time. You will see project less led based work. And, again, I would argue if if there's a project piece of work that shouldn't need a hugely onerous pitch, and, again, we'd be advising on how you choose, and that often will start. And we talk to brands that might start as a project, and the ideal is you keep winning that and you keep demonstrating what you're doing is working for the brand and for the brand to keep demonstrating to their board that that's working. So it doesn't always sort of mean it's just a project because it is. But it is, again, sound boring. I'd be asking, is this a project that you're hoping to lead to something, or is that project? And then, again, being able to do that, not being scared of that. If that works for your business model, if that works with everything else. So it's and it's bit of cop out. It is not one size fits all. I don't see I do still see an appetite from brands to want long term relationships and partnerships and tree partnerships? I also do see there'll be other areas that they might work on a more short term basis as they're dipping their toe in or as as and where they need, or is a one off strategic project that they need an agency for. They even want a web design agency, then you might want them to help maintain it. But that's understanding what are they looking for, and I understand that upfront. Now you might also be in a pitch and it's a one year to two year, that hopefully can go on. And again, old business is new business. If it keeps going and you have a beautiful relationship and you have a fifteen, twenty year relationship, if it's working well for all of you, that's brilliant. If everyone's growing, that's a perfect thing as well. So it works for you as a agency and a brand. And also sometimes agencies might find they want to move on. So it's how are you keeping it that you're both still and I know this sounds great. Joy for all, are you all enjoying working each other? Are you ideally, that should be that you're producing the best work of your career on both sides with those agency partners and you're driving business growth. That's when it all works. When it works, it really works well. And everyone has some and I've made some of my best friendships working as part of multi agency teams with clients over there because we were all in that great spot where everyone's loving it and working well together. I'm not sure I've even answered your question there, but got on to it. It's nearly at the end, so I thought I'd end on a positive note. No, absolutely, absolutely. And I think the spirit of your answer is also captured with Chantel, who says, we often see brands don't actually need what they wanted initially. And so like, the spirit of like those relationships, you have the scoping at the beginning continues, you enjoy working with each other to your point and then you go, okay, cool. Do you wanna do the same thing? Like there's those opportunities. Right? So And and could we do more of this? Or, you know, there's brilliant ones where, you know, sometimes agencies go develop new skill sets, and they take their existing clients and the ones that go with them to to launch that, that's brilliant. That that's a show that because they've earned that trust, and they're like, we'll go with you as you develop that. So it's much easier from a trusted position and an expert position and a reliable position to to go into other areas. Hang on. Love it so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your experience, your thoughts, your wisdom today. Honestly, I think as I've said a few times, it's going be the motto of my reflections from this. But there's just so much richness in your answers. There's so many opportunities to go deeper than the hour we had. So thank you for It's absolute pleasure. I hope everyone else enjoyed it as well. Thank you so much. Not at all. And thank you, everyone in the community, for just being fabulous as ever. Like And thanks, Joe. Yeah. Thank you, Joe Royce, as well, for being an absolute hero. So we'll see you all next week. Thank you very much, everyone. Cheers, Joe, and take care. Bye bye. Bye bye.