Dave represents one of the most exciting practitioners in the marketing industry today. Working in several of Bostons best known companies since 2009 including Constant Contact and HubSpot, although, Dave came into view with his work at Drift. For TMM, during these times whenever anyone asked who was killing it in the marketing world, we would always revert to the work being done by Drift at the time.
Since December 2019, Dave has been the CMO of Privy, a company focusing on helping e-commerce brands increase their growth through conversion and email marketing tools. In his spare time, he also is a guest lecturer at Harvard Business School, and maintains his Patreon following – the A-List, which you can be part of too.
There are two things we’ve really come to admire about Dave. The first is that he is a dedicated family man . But perhaps the thing that has most impressed me about Dave is his willingness to share. He could probably sneeze on Linkedin and get 1000 likes on the platform these days, but we know we have personally gained a lot from Dave’s work.
Some key questions asked were:
* Learnings from a COVID-19 world?
* Many of the folks here in the UK won’t use the term playbook – could you explain the concept of your ‘playbook’ to the audience, and what are the key constitute parts of the playbook for you? Does it change over time or is it designed to address the fundamentals of marketing?
* What has been added to the playbook since you joined Privy? What has been taken away/ Most fundamentally, have you developed an idea of the things that would always stay consistent in marketing, regardless of industry?
* You’ve successfully played a huge part in a growing brand. What changed over the course of time as the company grew from a marketing perspective?
* When approaching the new role at Privy, how did you approach day one and week one?
* Did you rewrite the marketing strategy? How long in advance did you plan? If so, what are the headers that you included? Right here I’m trying to get to a place of understanding your approach to marketing as a whole.
* What was your approach to dealing with the present Covid crisis?
* Have you started looking ahead and planning for a time after COVID or are you still reacting to the current reality?
* Are there any opportunities you see post-covid in a marketing perspective?
* You appear on the outside at least to be involved in implementation, or at the very least, still executing some things tactically. What does your CMO look like today? How do you think this differs from other CMOs you would regard as peers?
* What’s your biggest weakness as a marketer and how have you mitigated that in your current team?
* You have previously been an advocate of not being able to put an ROI figure next to every bit of activity you engage in. There will be some in the audience, particularly now, who will be asked by their boss to count every penny. How do you justify those moments which won’t have a clear attribution angle to take to the board?
* You’ve had stellar success building your own personal brand, and you’ve succesfully managed to commercialise that through Patreon with hundreds of members – what affect do you think your ‘pull’ has on the brands you work with, now Privy?
* You’ve previously spoken a lot about the role David Cancel has had on you and your career in a nephew/uncle role. What lessons do you take from him that still serve you well today, and what is your view on mentorship in general?
* For marketing generalists currently out of work or furloughed who want to spend some time upskilling – which area/s would you suggest they focus on and why?
* Gun to your head, what is the top three books people should read in the next few weeks? Which are those people should avoid? Do you have a technique for reading which has been effective?
Joe Glover 0:05
Hello, everyone and welcome to the fourth ever marketing webinar. Today we’ve got the absolute pleasure of spending some time with Dave go up tg to his friends, the CMO of privy and always in a hoodie. Very importantly, Dave, for me represents one of the most exciting practitioners in the marketing industry today. He’s not just an academic who thinks a lot about marketing. He’s there in the trenches doing it every day, which is sincerely impressive. Dave spent his time working in several of Boston’s most well known, well known companies, including Constant Contact HubSpot, but for me, at least Dave came into view during his time at drift. during these times when everyone asked me who was the best marketing team in the world, generally speaking, I would repeat
With drift, that’s a I’ve learned a lot from them. Since December 2019. Dave’s been CMO of privy a company focusing on helping ecommerce brands increase their growth through conversion and email marketing tools. And he’s a busy dude, because in his spare time, he’s also a guest lecturer at Harvard Business School, I made friends his Patreon, following the a list, which you can be part of two. There’s two things I’ve really come to admire about Dave. The first is that he’s a dedicated family, man. And if you follow me on Instagram, you’ll get to see that. But perhaps the thing that’s most impressive is his willingness to share with the community. At this point, he could probably just sneeze on LinkedIn and get 1000 likes. But I know that I’ve personally gained a lot from day’s work, so I’m grateful for him. Before we get going, I just want to say thank you to the sponsors of the marketing meetup, all of whom have been unbelievable in support in this group, even during these tough times. I won’t go into depth here because there’s a link in the email I’ve sent before and afterwards. But if there’s a group of people I want to just thank I want to say thank you to pitch content, cow fibre, red gate, Cambridge Martin, college leader brand further third, light, bravo and human. If there’s one thing I could do, to ask of everyone that attends this, this webinar afterwards, it would be just to drop them a message afterwards, just to say thank you for their contributions to our community. Because without them, we wouldn’t be able to carry on doing what we’re doing. The last thing to say is today is a q&a. Which means that you can use the q&a feature which is down below. I’ve got a whole bunch of questions written down old school style on the sheet of paper, but if you guys want to ask any questions, then now is the time. There is also an upvote functionality there so you can also if you see a question Like, if you some, give it a thumbs up, then we’ll ask those ones first. So, all that said, I’ll say, welcome, dg, and thank you so much for taking the time.
Dave Gerhardt 3:13
Thanks for having me, Joe, I appreciate all the nice things that you said about me, it’s the best part about having an introduction is you just get to sit there. And listen.
I appreciate that. I love marketing, and it’s what I love talking about and doing. So I’m happy to be able to be here and hang out and do it.
Joe Glover 3:31
I’m grateful for you taking the time. I know you’re a busy man. So I think it’s wicked that you’ve even said yes, in the first place. You’re one of the first people I tried to get in touch with this webinar programme side. So the fact you said yes was not only amazing, but a great confidence boost to sort of get in touch with an awful lot of other people too. So that was awesome. So I just want to ask the first question, which very simply is How are you? How are you doing? How are you adjusting to this new life?
Dave Gerhardt 3:58
Yeah, I mean, we’re doing good everybody in my family is is healthy and were safe. And so from that perspective, we’re good. It’s tough to it’s tough to really say any anything else. Other than that right now, I think, you know, we’re lucky to be in, you know, to have jobs to have a safe place to live and go and to just be in a position where like my job is in is in marketing, like I’m the furthest thing from the frontlines. And so I think, you know, we’re in a, we’re in a lucky position, and I think we’ve just made the shift to work from home, which, luckily enough for us, is it it’s, it’s normal for our industry. I have lots of friends that can’t work from home. And so I just, I think we’re just feeling lucky, to be honest.
Joe Glover 4:44
Sure, and heavy like I mean, you sort of alluded to it there that we are very used to working from home, but have you learned anything during this time that you probably didn’t expect or whatever,
Dave Gerhardt 4:55
yeah, that my team is really good at what they do and I should get the hell out of their way and shut up. Because I mean, we’ve been putting up some amazing numbers and the marketing team at pervy has just been cranking out some amazing stuff. And it’s been really interesting because like, I’m just super type a person who even though I try to delegate a lot of stuff, I just like, I got to know about everything. And I got to be in the weeds on everything. And it’s a gift and a curse. And this has really forced me to like, you know, I can’t my wife and I both work or home with the kid that’s like impossible to really actually get work done. And so my working time has just shifted to like either doing calls like this or doing calls one on one calls with my team. And it’s just been amazing to just see how they’ve taken off and taken on responsibility and leadership and like, I think this is going to make us such a better team it already has, when we actually do get back in the office together. And so we really just shifted to like, you know, trim down on a lot of meetings. Instead of doing like a big long marketing meeting. We talk every day at 930. We do a zoom call on Mondays that zoom calls Focus on like metrics, recap from like how we’re doing month to date. And so the person who runs demand Gen on the team, he’ll go through all the all the numbers month to date, where we’re at how we’re doing what we’re working on this week. Then we’ll look at the editorial calendar for the next week. And then every other day of the week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, we just do a daily stand up, Hey, what are you doing how you doing just five minutes to see each other. And that’s been great. And then on top of that, the other changes just been to like, up the frequency of one on ones with the people on my team. So we’re just doing them twice a week just to check in, which is really only possible because I don’t have a big team right now. It there’s, there’s there’s only five people So spend most of my day talking to the team. And other than that I’m home, you know, with the kids hanging out.
Joe Glover 6:46
Nice. That’s awesome. I mean, so that’s really interesting, because from the outside At least you do seem to be really involved in implementation. You know, you’re in the trenches almost day to day. But of course, traditional cmo role is probably one of them. management is one of sitting back and sort of being more strategically based. I still doing elements of tactical implementation day to day or is that done to the team now?
Dave Gerhardt 7:09
Yeah, I mean, so part of it is a reason why I joined privy, right. Which is like, I think if you know anything about me, I love marketing like I love doing the marketing. And so, you know, I I don’t think that at least I’m what I want in life right now is, I don’t think I’m fit to be the CMO with 100 person marketing team and spending my whole day doing budget meetings and planning meetings and spreadsheets and process and this person is unhappy, this person wants a raise like that, that that’s, that’s too much. I like doing the marketing. And so, you know, part of the reason why I went to preview was because I could basically do, do 50% you know, marketing and then 50%, setting the marketing strategy and leading the team and it’s the perfect mix. I would say I’m not in the weeds. I’m not I’m not like writing emails. I’m not writing headlines. But I basically think my job is almost like, chief editor, like, I’m the editor of all of our marketing. And that’s that means like, I want to know what the headline of that of that article is. I want to know what the subject line of the email is, but I’m not writing it and like, so I’ve been very involved in that type of stuff kind of more, more. So like the overall strategy, like what are we going to do? And that that, you know, most of the creative stuff, but but the team is executing on everything day to day, and they’re saying like, no crazy, man, we don’t need to do that, because we already got these three other things that we’re doing that you suggested last week. And so like, for me, it’s just a really good fit for for what I think personally, I can bring to the table which is like energy and enthusiasm and creative ideas, and matched up with a team who like wants to go out and execute and can push back and it’s really been so much fun to be able to do that again.
Joe Glover 8:53
Are you 100% that boss that walks into into the office or onto slack in the morning says I’ve had an idea Yeah, I
Dave Gerhardt 9:00
mean, most of the time, to be honest with you, most of the time, it happens before I’ve walked into the office like that, you know, the joke is that, like, I’ll get to my desk. And when we would actually go in the office, I get to my desk, and I’ve already been talking to the team for an hour this morning, or, you know, I’ve already sent five emails with ideas. And, you know, that’s, that’s like the job that I signed up for. And I set that expectation with the team upfront, though, it’s like, just because I might be sending you five emails at nine o’clock at night doesn’t mean that I expect you to answer. But I don’t want to have to, like hold back when I’m sharing something with you, because it just kind of ruins the process. Like, oh, I can get this idea. I’ll send it tomorrow. Like I think people are grown up enough to be able to handle that. And I just set that expectation upfront that like hey, just because I’m always sharing this stuff, doesn’t mean a that you have to respond in real time and be it doesn’t mean that you have to actually do it. I want you to be able to like comb through the list of things and say, That’s not important right now. Oh shoot that is actually a really good idea we should stop and change what we’re doing right now.
Joe Glover 10:03
I guess that goes a little bit back to down to that trust element that you sort of spoke about at the beginning, then maybe I guess he might have more even more trust at this point. Having had this experience, perhaps.
Dave Gerhardt 10:15
Yeah, I do. Honestly. I’m just like having to learn to just shut up more and and like, like, why can’t I? Why can’t I remember that the team is super smart. And I don’t need to do all this. And like, that’s been my daily reminder to just get out of the way and shut up,
Joe Glover 10:34
for sure. That’s fair. That’s fair. So many of the marks we have audience are based in the UK. And one of the terms that you use a lot is playbook. Now. I’m pretty sure that probably originates from American football. But you probably just call it football over there. But like, could you explain the concept of your what a playbook is And how you approach it and how you tend to apply your playbooks into the marketing sphere.
Dave Gerhardt 11:05
Yeah, I think it’s just the name right. I think it’s probably probably a comparison would be like, you could also call it a recipe. Yeah. You know, you could call it a formula. I think it’s it’s any of that things you’re asking about, like my playbook specifically.
Joe Glover 11:20
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I’d love to know what’s in it? Well,
Dave Gerhardt 11:24
I think so I can tell you, I can never tell you what’s in mine. But I think that, to me, the best marketers actually have many playbooks and can go and like, adapt that playbook to the new company or new product that they’re at. And so like, there’s definitely things that I think were were in my playbook right from my past company drift, but just because I have a new job doesn’t mean I can take everything that work there and apply it into previous it’s gonna work. And I’m saying this because I see a lot of marketers doing this like, just blindly copying a playbook that either Your old company or somebody company has done and assuming it’s going to work. So number one is like, I think it’s almost like being an athlete. The best athletes are versatile, right? Like they can do but be successful in a bunch of different sports. And I think the same is true in marketing. As far as my playbook goes, I think like, it always kind of starts with putting storytelling at the centre of what we’re trying to do as a company. And so that means like, sharing who you are, like, Who are you the actual people inside of the company that are going to be doing Mark do the marketing like how can you get your face out there and introduce yourself to that community so people can know like and trust you. And then with that usually comes like a heavy content components or like, blog, video, podcast, social, my bias has always been to like, build some type of content thing around the brand. So you can start to build an audience before you actually have something to sell. And so like, I just believe so much in the audience. The power of like, creating content and telling that story. So like when we went to privy, the first thing that we did there was start a podcast, not because we thought we’d be able to grow huge podcasts, but because like, I think that a podcast is basically like a Trojan horse for like, capturing all the content you need from your brand. And that’s a lesson that I that I learned at drift working with David cancel like, we started by doing a podcast together where I just interviewed him like what was going on in the business at a time when we had no content. And that was a way to just get a tonne of content out. And that’s really the approach that I’ve taken anywhere. And I would take that anywhere that I go. Let’s say that I go start an e commerce brand tomorrow. First thing I’m going to do is like make a video about why me Why did I start this brand? What are we doing? What are we learning as you’re going and so like, everything that I’ve done has kind of had that I guess formula in there somewhere. Nice. That’s awesome that
Joe Glover 13:55
you’ve actually sort of jumped out to my next question, which was what’s been added or What’s been taken away and what stay consistent across the jobs? Mmm particular, the consistency is what I’m really important interested in because like you’ve gone from like, one really high profile job where you’ve been super central to the growth of drift over the course of time, you know, and apart from the amazing team as well. But now you’ve sort of got the eyes on you as well. So I mean, like, Is there some immutable laws of marketing, which just like you carry close to your heart and use to inform the tactics. So for example, you spoke about podcasting, which is probably a tactic within content marketing, which then falls into marketing as a general thing. So very fundamental level. What are those sort of marketing fundamentals that you’ve bought into privy?
Dave Gerhardt 14:46
Hmm, this is good. Okay. So I think one of them for me is copywriting. Like, copywriting is everything to me as a marketer. And I actually think it’s not just a marketing skill, like if you can write good copy, you can You know, cold email somebody for sales, you could write that passive aggressive email to your landlord to get 50% of your rent back, right? You could write that write that message to your kids school. Like I think copywriting is like, the ability to communicate clearly and sell through words. And so if you can’t do that, as a marketer, nothing else matters. And also I think I love copywriting because copywriting is rooted in like the most important principles of marketing, which is human psychology, understanding, like, what makes people tick, how to persuade someone, you know, understanding about emotions and once and desires and so like, you can’t write great copy, everything else is going to be hard. You can be the smartest Product Marketing tech, technical product marketing person in the world. If you can’t write great copy, no one’s going to be able to clearly understand what you’re doing. And so for me, it’s always got to be like, great, great website, copy, great email copy, like, you know, something that hooks you right away and all of your content And with that copywriting comes like really sweating headlines like it’s 2020. Like you have to accept the fact that everyone is just headline reading, right think about what’s happening with Coronavirus right now, like nobody’s actually reading the fucking New York Times 5000 word articles. They’re just we’re all we’re all like I do it too. We’re all on Twitter scanning headlines, right? So you have to you have to know that you have to know that as a marker like, Okay, how are you going to use that to your advantage then? And it’s not just using to your advantage, but how are you going to how you’re going to cut through the noise, right? If somebody else has 1000 different headlines going on what’s going to be the thing that you that you do to cut through the noise and so in addition to copywriting, which is part of that the other thing for me has always been trying to be like, what is that? What is that thing that’s going to get people’s attention? Something that I that I stole from from Gary Vee i think is incredible at this is he calls it underpriced attention. And what that means is like where are the opportunities for you as a brand where you can come Pete and so when when when I went to privy like, you have to look at the landscape of what other people are doing in the market. And so we saw a bunch of other companies that had good email lists, they had good blogs, but nobody in our, in our space, at least from a competitive standpoint really had a podcast. And so we said, Hey, we want to own e commerce marketing as a brand. Let’s go start the e commerce Marketing Show and have that be our hook. And I think that there’s underpriced attention for starting that show. And the response has been amazing so far, and so like that, that to me is like, you have to be able to like see the playing field and see what the opportunities are like. Just because everybody in your industry has a blog doesn’t mean that you should go start one and like, you have to in the early days, look for the opportunities where you can have a unique advantage to go out and win. And for us, I thought that’s like, oh, there’s a huge opportunity to build a podcast here. And I think this is going to be something that that anchors everything else for us. So I’m trying to give you more because there’s a lot copywriting is one finding underpriced attention is another. I think just like being authentic and all of your marketing is like is another thing for me, that’s really important. Because I think like, you have to understand the environment that you’re marketing in, which is it’s 2020. Nobody wants to be sold to nobody wants to deal with marketing. Nobody wants to click on ads, and so like, the way you can cut through that is by being authentic, right? It’s like when you go to a restaurant and you ask a waiter, like what’s good here, and they say to you, everything’s good. You’re like, bullshit. That’s not true, right? Like, we want it like I want the waiters gonna be like, what are you in the mood for? Oh, just trust me. Like, I know, pizza is pretty regular, but you got to have the pizza here. It’s ridiculous. Like, that’s what we want. We want real authentic experiences. And so I think like, even if you’re selling enterprise from from selling like hoodies online all the way to enterprise software, I think you have to find a way to like, weave authenticity and tell that real story inside of your marketing. Those are probably like the core principle. I think then you can figure out like, okay, because of that, what does that mean from a strategy standpoint?
Joe Glover 19:05
That’s awesome. I love that and you know, so your background your first job was actually in was in press or something tough in Yeah, I
Dave Gerhardt 19:15
was in it was in PR.
Joe Glover 19:17
Dave Gerhardt 19:19
did you do internship?
Joe Glover 19:22
did you learn the ropes there or was it through reading as well that you sort of picked up on your copywriting and, and your best copywriting tips?
Dave Gerhardt 19:29
I don’t know. I think like looking back, looking back, I’ve always I’ve always been been good at writing, not writing at like a perfect grammar, you know, English degree level, but like, I’ve always been able to clearly articulate what I like, I’ve always been that person that my mom or my now wife or my friend has been like, Can you write that email? Like, what would you write to my dad? And I think that I just never realised that that was a business step. was a business skill. And now I’m like, you idiot. That’s everything. And so I think like, what what happened for me is I had that PR internship and I wasn’t really interested in business after graduating college, I just I wasn’t really interested in, I just needed to find a job. And it was at that PR internship was only place that would pay me at the time was $10 an hour. I realised that oh my god, I was good at this because of my writing, like I was, you know, getting reporters, like I was hooking them and pitching them and getting into like, what, what changed for me is I saw this skill that I didn’t think was that important, which is just, oh, it’s just writing. I’m now using it to like, be successful in my job and get promoted and make more money. And I was like, Oh, wait, there might be something here. And then I kind of turn the PR job into a marketing job and it just became something that, you know, I naturally took a liking to and kind of got like addicted to and while I was at constant contact. I just always wanted to like I was wanting to start my own blog or have my own, you know, newsletter because once I got into marketing, I started to see all these people that like, Oh, they, they’re marketers, but they also have like their own blog. How cool is that? Like, I’m always just like, I just want to have my own radio show or a blog or whatever. And that that led me ultimately to starting this podcast that I did in Boston called tech in Boston, where I go and interview local entrepreneurs. And that was the thing that really changed for me like because that taught me how to do marketing like that was I was like a 25 year old kid working at a 1500 person company. I wasn’t really like touching anything important. But because I started my own thing, like I had to build the website, I had to figure out how to do podcasting. I had to cold outreach to like, famous in Boston CEOs and get get me to show up at their office and let me interview them. Like, I had to sell sponsorships, I had to build a MailChimp email list like that was when everything changed for me like that’s when I learned marketing that I got to match that up with like, being at a place like HubSpot, and like learning from Mike Volpi and people they’re turning that into my job at drift and like the only secret from drift was it I did the marketing, like I wrote every word in the beginning and then scaled as we went. And so like I learned by doing, and now I’m at a point where I got to take a new job at pervy, and like, every day, I get so excited because I’m realising, subconsciously, all these things that I’ve learned from that journey that I’m now applying. And it’s just like, the only way to really learn is by doing and I don’t want to stop that. And so I’m always like, tinkering, it’s why I have, that’s why I have this side, this side thing called the a list, which is my group on Patreon. Because like, I think I’m learning things through that group that I’m gonna get to take back and use that preview that are gonna make us better as a company. And I just don’t ever want to lose that. And like, I think there’s an important thing in there, which is like the way if you really want to learn start something on the side, especially today, it’s so easy. You could start a tick tock channel, a YouTube channel, you know, let’s say you’re a marketer. You’re not crazy like me and you just don’t want to talk about marketing. Like my thing is marketing, right? Let’s say you’re a marketer, but you love baking. But what if you Why don’t you go start a YouTube channel and learn how to you do YouTube SEO and grow that channel, I’d rather hire that person all day over the person who has some like perfect looking degree on paper. And that’s really because like, that’s the story that I lived. I think it’s made me well rounded. I’m not I’m not super great at any one thing in marketing, but I know enough about each area to like be able to go and find the right people to work with to get a tonne
Joe Glover 23:25
to show and you know, that’s something that we spoke with Margaret Malloy two weeks ago. And she’s the global CMO of seagull and Gail, like a massive agency up in New York, you know, and she’s done exactly the same thing. You know, like she’s gone Baton Rouge, she started a new campaign called wearing Irish and she said exactly the same thing that you know, it gives her the opportunity to kind of engage with the lessons which she wouldn’t necessarily be able to. Anyway. And I’m curious and I’ll start taking some community questions in a moment, but you sort of touched on it in the second there, which was about you’re experiencing drift and now how you’ve gone to privy. Are you kind of able to see into your marketing future to a certain extent? I mean, obviously, there’s going to be like elements which are going to be changing. I mean Coronavirus for one is like, obviously a huge thing. But hopefully when we get back to businesses, you are able to sort of say, well, we’re probably going to be taking those challenges at this point. And if so, like, what are those challenges that you foresee when you start scaling business?
Dave Gerhardt 24:28
Yeah, I don’t know. I honestly think this is such a unique time in history that for anybody to give you like a prediction is just complete guess. I think right now we’re taking it day by day, week by week everything is changing that quickly. I do think though, like, you know, you’re in an industry that’s going to be impacted for a while, right. Like I don’t, I don’t think that it’s realistic to assume that inside of six months, at least, we’re going to be able to do large gatherings, right. And so I think that means events are out the window. And events are such a huge part of business like, you know, we, at privy, we we were just getting ready to announce our first annual event. And you know, to show you that I love events, right, like, so it’s a bummer to miss out on that channel. But I think, you know, the challenge to marketing is gonna be like, how can you really try to recreate those experiences online? And do it in a world where everybody else is going to be trying to do the same thing. So like, how are you going to be able to stand out that’s kind of one theme is like, what are you going to do to replace events? Think the other theme that’s gonna bubble up is just empathy. Right? And I think empathy is always the most important topic in marketing. Because if you can’t understand who you’re trying to sell to and communicate with, like, you’re not gonna be very good at that. But I think you know, in a world where everyone is going to know somebody that was like, impacted by Coronavirus. How do you have a message that that’s going to be Effective but also not come across as pushy as insensitive as tone deaf, and so like, you know, you still have a job to do you still have to go and try to build a business and sell stuff like, Please keep your foot on the gas there. But how do you do it in a way that’s gonna, you know, match what, what people really are ready to do in their life. And I think that’s just a unique problem that each brand is going to have to figure out on their own.
Joe Glover 26:22
For sure. I can certainly speak to that myself that even if we had a quote unquote, perfect match on you know, someone who would be a perfect marketing meetup attendee back in the day. One of my main challenges right now is that, even if they were right, on every demographic on every previous behaviour, they’re probably going to be wrapped in things quite differently at the moment, you know, they’re going to be in different head spaces. So it’s a real challenge and something I’m very mindful of, but don’t have the answers to in terms of how can we make sure that our communication is and copywriting is on point for as many things people as possible, who fit our demographic, you know, and that’s a challenge. And I don’t know, I don’t think it’s the one that anyone has necessarily. So
Dave Gerhardt 27:08
I still think though, like, this is something I’ve been thinking about a lot the last week or so, I think that this is like, this is the new This is reality. Now this is the new world that we live in. And so like, my initial take was like when when the Coronavirus stuff really peaked in, in the states here. We kind of hit pause on marketing for a couple days, just to like, not promote stuff for a couple days to see what would shake what kind of shook out of that. But now it’s become obviously like, this is this is not this is going to be we’re gonna be dealing with six months, 12 months, 18 months, two years. So my concern is from a marketing and business perspective is that like, you can’t be afraid. You still have to take risks. And so you still have to like you can’t be afraid. You can’t let that fear of, you know, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Limit you from trying to come up with that next crazy creative idea. Doesn’t mean like, there’s never a good time to be tone deaf, but I think like, you still have to find ways to be creative. Especially now more than ever to go and like earn people’s attention.
Joe Glover 28:11
Definitely not, I’m say with you, you know, is raised. You know, it starts with empathy, and it starts with good intentions. And I guess, you know, after that point, you know, you start pushing those those barriers and trying to help folks in so many different ways. Right, so I’m going to take some questions from the audience here. And one thing I’d say is that there’s a q&a down below, for those of you who haven’t found it so far, and also to use the thumbs up mechanism, because then we’ll just start listing from the top, the ones the questions that we weren’t answering. So there’s a question from my mate bass here, which says there’s a trend around articles and blogs focusing on the new normal. When lockdowns are finally over. What do you think the normal new normal for marketers will look like if it won’t even exist? And potentially you might not be able to answer this because you always have predictions. Things will be very hard. So
Dave Gerhardt 29:03
I don’t know. I think I think we just touched on that, like the new normal is gonna look like
economy. I mean, I’m feeling thankful to be in ecommerce right now like I think the new the new normal is going to be much more spend is going to happen online? I think it’s so tough to answer because every every industry is different right now like some industries are scaling up budgets right now some people are cutting back and doing layoffs. So I don’t know not to not to cop out in an answer, but I don’t know what the new normal is I’d be lying if I if I had an answer.
Joe Glover 29:36
I think you’d be also on a lot of money. Maybe more now. So as his colleague says, What do you think a CMO or marketing directors biggest challenges right now?
Dave Gerhardt 29:50
You know, if you’re I’m assuming you’re asking I’d like to see Mr. level or somebody who’s running a marketing team. I think just like overall How are the people on your team doing? Because I think, you know, there’s a lot going on, and you’re not there to like actually see everybody in person. So, team is probably number one on the marketing tactic side, I think it’s just like, how do you keep? How do you keep the urgency on from, from a sales perspective, you know, in a world where like, you can’t really push right now.
Joe Glover 30:25
So, um, I’d be interested, this is a question that I took from mutual friend Richard wood, from sex and flow. So I’ve been doing
Dave Gerhardt 30:35
this question, has this question been vetted already?
Joe Glover 30:39
I mean, I’ve taken the swear words out if that counts, okay. So he says, What’s your biggest weakness as a marketer and how have you mitigated that with your current team?
Dave Gerhardt 30:51
It’s a great question.
My biggest weakness as a marketer is probably I’m really good at starting things and then there’s usually one or two things that I fall in love with. You know, I’ll be the first one to be like, oh, let’s go look at the conversion rate of that like one you know campaign. But then like I have no interest in actually like doing that and going into Salesforce and running the reports and you know, I’m not going to be the analytical like slice and dice chopper of campaigns and like, oh, if we put this here, we’re going to double the conversion rate and we can move this around, then we’re going to move this budget over here like and so so the way that I’ve supplemented that is hired somebody amazing to own that and trust them to be great at it and it’s, it’s really been amazing. It’s really been amazing to have his name is Ryan and to be able to have somebody who’s who’s great at that and do it because it just gives me you know, selfishly the freedom to like double down on my superpower, right which is like the brand and the creative and copy like I don’t have to think about where I’m going to spend my time. And I think my, my experience probably five years ago would be like, threatened by that, like, Oh, I need to know more than that person, if I’m going to manage them, I need to be smarter. I need to, like know all the things inside and out. And and the answer is, I did an interview last year with with Heather’s in Zach, it was for drift. And her she’s good friends with the CMO of LinkedIn. And somehow we were talking about career paths as a CMO. And I asked her because I read a book about the CMO of LinkedIn, where she talks about how she came from a PR background. And I was like, well, that’s super interesting to see like a big name cmo came from PR and and in that interview, I talked to Heather about it and she said, Look, you can be a CMO from any background. You just have to have that core discipline and be able to then like hire around the areas and build a team around and so she said like in that area where she is her background is pr at LinkedIn. Then she’s got Like she’s obviously going to spend like more time there because that’s what she’s naturally good at. She could focus. She’s to hire someone very good, better than her who knows the demand Gen who knows the funnel, right? And so like, for me, that was priority number one. And joining this company is like, right thing that I want to do right away, I know, my first hire, I want it to be somebody who is super analytical, you know, the Yin to my Yang and can run that part of the team. And, and we can have a great relationship and that that’s been an amazing learning for me this time. And I think that just comes with knowing what what is what is your weakness? And how are you going to plug that gap? For sure.
Joe Glover 33:37
So you had a really strong relationship with David can sell and you know, I’m sure probably still do. Was he as a mental? Was he similar to you in the sense that he was very creative chap, or was he the empty hang in in terms of being very data driven and that kind of stuff?
Dave Gerhardt 33:54
He’s super, he’s super creative. I mean, what the most fun that I had in my career was Just like riffing him and I would always just be riffing back and forth on on ideas, whether that’s a headline or a hook or a video or a podcast idea. I think a lot of people don’t know how creative he is with that type of stuff. And that was really cool for me because like, I thought before, oh, somebody just writes a headline and it’s done and like, what he taught me was like, he would just feed it just, he wanted me to reach out to him when I was stuck on something. And so then we just kind of riff on something and I can’t tell you how many how many good ideas or headlines or intros or phrases came from like, a back and forth text out like, you know, nine o’clock on a Tuesday night. And so, I got a lot of like, I learned a lot about creativity from from him and how to go. And I also learned from him like, how to go be inspired and get and get ideas like I wasn’t I never thought of myself as that creative before. But I realised that that is my strength now, because I learned from him. Like how to Go do that. And that’s like studying, you know, studying other related topics and seeing how they do it. Hey, how does somebody else do it in this other industry? Like, wow, you know, Porsche is like amazing at copywriting and advertising. Like, if we’re going to sell something high end, like go and study the lessons from Porsche. And so like, I learned that framework to help me be creative in that that’s been a huge thing for me.
Joe Glover 35:24
So that’s awesome. That’s really interesting. And like the relationship between the two of you, like, in many ways, I sort of saw you and the other day, you know, it’s like the faces of the company. And, of course, that couldn’t have been very easy, like first and foremost, like, leaving drift in the first place. But I wondered if there’s any sort of lessons that you have for companies who are building brands around specific faces and specific people? Because no doubt that you know, even in my introduction I mentioned mentioned drift and you’re not there anymore. You know, and but you’ve still taken this personal brand and you know, climates, privy, will you do the same again, in putting yourself first and foremost, or you’re quite likely to sort of take a step back and, and make the brand sort of speak a little bit more?
Dave Gerhardt 36:16
Yeah, I think, I think here, it’s there. It’s different for different stages of the company. And so like, joining privy, they were already around 10 million in revenue. They had 6065 people at the company 400,000 like merchants using that and so like, the challenge wasn’t necessarily to come in and like find people who are interested in buying it was it was more like, no, elevate the brand and so what I’m doing in this role is trying to make Ben who’s the CEO like, he should be the he should be the face, he should be the spokesperson. But I’m gonna like, you know, marketing is my thing. And I can go into e commerce and talk about marketing. So I’m going to host the e commerce Marketing Show, but I’m not the expert. I’m interviewing experts in like playing dumb like, Hey, I don’t know anything about e commerce Teach me and so I think we’re kind of using a little bit of like a hybrid approach this time. I do think though, that, to me this is like, I can’t think of a reason why you wouldn’t want to do this because ultimately, people buy from people and we’re all looking for that, like, we’re all looking for that person who we can see and, and interact with and, and like, actually communicate with as a person not as a brand. And I think like for a lot of especially in the b2b space or any brand, really. Most products that you’re selling are commodities today and so the way to win customers is to build relationships with people. And I think you’re just gonna you’re able to stack the deck if you can do that for your company. So like, I can’t think of reason why I would not want to be the face of of anything. I just think it just like depends on what your expertise is. So like if I if I went to a cybersecurity company, I might Whole shtick is not going to work in that industry. And so like, I can’t be the face of cybersecurity, but I would shift my focus to then be like, Oh, how do I make this CEO? Like, why did she start this company? Like, what? What? What’s her story like, Okay, I’m gonna make her the face of this, and I, you know, launch a podcast for her and write a book for her. And I think that that playbook, recipe formula, whatever you want to call it is something that I would apply to any company. So it’s not, it’s not about me, and putting myself as the face of it. It’s about who are the experts in your company? And how can you make them the face of it versus just your logo?
Joe Glover 38:32
And although I would sort of add to that, that one of the things that’s been quite interesting to sort of see you do since December, is that you’ve been posting on LinkedIn quite a bit about how you use the podcast as an opportunity to learn and learn from the best. So as much as you’re sort of saying that you place your experts for first and foremost there’s also something in the in the process that’s quite captivating to kind of watch from the outside in, you know, so don’t get embarrassed and learning something new. That’s pretty cool. So I like that as a tactic. I think it’s good. We’ve got a question here from Marie halen, who says, and it’s a very big question, which is do you pay more attention to your gut feelings or to stats slash numbers?
Dave Gerhardt 39:23
I don’t think you can pick one. I think it’s a blend of both. You know, it’s like, which one of your kids do you love the most? Like, you gotta, you got to be able to you got to be able to use them both. I think God is usually the thing that gets me the most excited and then I will go and look at something like I got a crazy idea. Let me go call up Brian and see if he can actually go like, you know, give me some give me some gut check on this, like, hey, what if we did this and this segment? Would this be interesting? That actually doesn’t make any sense? Okay, cool. Like, you got to be able to use them both together. But there’s definitely times where it depends on what the thing is. Where your gut might tell you to do it, like when we were going to do our event, the ROI math that we could come up with for, like how much revenue would be able to generate from that was terrible. Yeah, I think gut feel the gut feeling is like, oh, we’re not doing this event to generate revenue, we’re doing it to generate content and brand. And so my gut feeling is that even though it’s going to be a big expense, it’s going to be worth it. And it’s not going to be something that people are going to be able to articulate why it was worth it until after we do it. And then everyone’s gonna go, Ah, no one’s looking for the ROI analysis. So in situations like that, that I use gut, but usually it’s like a combination of gut and data.
Joe Glover 40:34
And how do you handle that conversation? Because, you know, there’s MDS and CEOs around the world who, you know, they’re quite a lot of faith into you, right, you know, to sort of say, you know, you’ll be able to see afterwards, you’ll be able to attribute it afterwards.
Dave Gerhardt 40:47
Yeah, I think you have to have upfront conversation. Like, I think a lot of, you know, you have to, to me, it’s like what’s the goal of doing an event
Unknown Speaker 40:55
Dave Gerhardt 40:57
because I think people have missed people don’t have the right expectations. And so if you’re doing an event, and then you got to go, and your your CFO thinks it’s a sales event, and then you got to show at the, you know, end up two months later how there’s no revenue from that, then your CFO is gonna be like, What? But if you can go in and you can say, hey, look, here’s the deal. We want to spend this, we want to spend this much budget, and we want to achieve this, here’s what we think we’re going to get from it, we think it’s going to be a great opportunity to make our best customers love us more, we think we can get three months of content worth it out of it. We think we’re in great, great, great new photos for our website. And so I think, yeah, it’s going to be a loss for us. But here’s why we think it’s an investment. Can’t you see how that’s gonna be a different conversation with the CFO upfront versus like, while we’re doing an event at lost money, I think you have to, like have that expectation up front. And I always try to like, pitch pitch like, it’s almost like I have to come up with a brief for the CFO or CEO or whoever, about why we’re doing something. I think a lot of marketers make the mistake of like, assuming that everybody else knows what Why they they know why No, your job has to ask that you have to market internally. Also, I have to market to the CEO every day, I have to market to the CFO every day. Next, explain why. And once you can effectively do that, a year from now, two years from now, whenever that then you don’t have to have those conversations anymore.
Joe Glover 42:17
For sure. But, you know, I think that’s entirely reasonable works out really well. So there’s a question here, which was sent out by Sara. She says for marketing generalists currently out of work, who wants to spend some time upskilling what areas would you suggest that they focus on and why?
Dave Gerhardt 42:36
I think that’s got to be personal to you, right? Like, what I would try to find is sit down and write out like what what are your true strengths? Is it video production, copywriting, you know, spreadsheets, analytical marketing demand Gen content, and I would use this as an opportunity to get great at something that you’re good at not go learn a new skill, but like, let’s say you’re pretty good at your Okay, copywriter. What have you can use the next three months to become a great copywriter. And I think that that’s where the leverage is is like you’re a good copywriter, don’t go become like an expert in in, you know, retargeting and spend, you know, six weeks learning courses about about ads like become a great copywriter to the point where like you are an in demand copywriting that people want. So that’s number one from which skill to focus on, I would do that analysis for yourself, then number two is then I would go try to find a way to apply that skill. And so like let’s say if it’s copywriting, can you go start a newsletter? Right now, even if seven people subscribe and it’s all of your aunts and uncles. That’s fine. The goal is like for you to write every day every week and like just build up that muscle. start a podcast that nobody’s going to listen to and that’s fine. start a blog that no one’s listening to, that’s fine. But like, I just hate the excuse to like, well, I don’t have anywhere to go do that. Like, do you want to become a better copywriter, like, open up a Google doc and write 500 words a day and you don’t have to show it to anybody but if you do that for three months But how much better? Could it be?
Joe Glover 44:03
Sorry. Okay, there’s a whole bunch of questions and we’re gonna get close to time. So this can be considered quite a quick fire round Dave that might appeal to the Bostonian in you as well. Okay. So we’re getting a tonne of questions here on books, blogs, courses, podcasts influences. So I’m just gonna put that to you first books, top three books. If you had a gun to your head
Dave Gerhardt 44:32
22 immutable laws of marketing number one Ogilvy on advertising number two, and behind the cloud the story about Salesforce number three, those will give you your most round, well rounded marketing MBA in three books,
Joe Glover 44:47
amazing books, if any.
Dave Gerhardt 44:50
I don’t read any blogs preview.com slash blog. Read
Joe Glover 44:55
nice podcasts. I think I know Joe Rogan’s one
Dave Gerhardt 45:00
Joe Rogan is like my late my wife Lee and I like it’s what we listen to what whenever, you know, we just need to unplug and hang out. Let me actually, let me let me pull. Let me pull up my podcast right now. I’ve actually been listening this is really weird. Usually I don’t do this I’ve actually been listening to the e commerce Marketing Show our podcasts at pervy because I’m really trying to soak in as much about e commerce as I can. And so like, it’s one thing to just interview you. It’s another thing to like that I have to go listen back to and so I’ve been spending a lot. The other show that I just started listening to is called my first million by Sam par from the hustle just I’m interested in. I like learning about businesses that are not traditional kind of SAS businesses like I’m interested in like, Oh, this person built $10 million email newsletter business and that’s where you get that from.
Joe Glover 45:50
Nice. My man James has been trying to get me on to that forever. So I might be the push that I need
Dave Gerhardt 45:57
to have too many. There’s too many.
Joe Glover 45:58
There is I mean, you If a marketer hasn’t said I’m starting a podcast in the last year, are you even a marketer as well? So So, you mentioned Gary Vee influences.
Dave Gerhardt 46:15
influencers and what influences in marketing? Yeah,
Joe Glover 46:18
let’s go for marketing. Most of the audience is marketing based.
Dave Gerhardt 46:22
Yeah, Gary, Gary. I mean, I think Gary is amazing. I think a lot of people. I think a lot of people don’t like him because of his personality and his bravado. But if you can cut through that, the reason why I listen to what he says is because he is a guy who through his agency VaynerMedia is working with the best brands in the world right now they had, they had the four most popular Superbowl commercials that they created and produced and so like, if you’re telling me you’re too good to listen to that, that person and then I have, I have no patience for that. And so like, I think that you can deal with the personality and get and get through that and actually listen to lessons I think there’s there’s a lot They’re
obviously I love Seth Godin.
As as a more classic, you know, you need you need the balance of those two, I think you need one on each shoulder. Could you imagine them in the room together?
via an interest? No.
I actually, I actually, though, I learned the most about marketing from from falling or not named influencers, like people who have grown a newsletter. YouTube is an amazing, amazing way to do this. And like, you know, my wife, she, she watches, like, there’s a bunch of like, either food blogs or there’s one like, that’s more of like makeup and hair products. And these people have 2 million subscribers on YouTube. And I’m more fascinated, like, how did she figure that out? How did she crack that audience? And like, what, what techniques do they use? Wow, that’s such a good idea. They invited five people to this private Villa and they did this thing. Like, I learned so much more from that than like, Oh, I see. Study, you know, James Smith, the marketing guru from PMG. Yeah,
Joe Glover 48:05
absolutely. Okay, so we’re still quickfire here. What’s the next big thing you want technology to enable you to do as a marketer? And that’s from Jeff.
Dave Gerhardt 48:17
Man with ITT tech,
just managed my whole budget. Nice.
Joe Glover 48:25
quite nice. That would be nice.
Dave Gerhardt 48:27
Okay, there’s bud. There’s the budget software, but I just want to like just input it just track it every track at all.
Joe Glover 48:33
Yeah, spit it out. That would be really nice. I’m rubbish at that part, from real estate. So question from Oliver. What’s your opinion on humour in emails? eg gifts, funny headings, emojis, that kind of stuff.
Dave Gerhardt 48:50
Yeah, humour. humour is great. The problem with humour is that like you just don’t always know if it’s funny. Like you might be funny to you. And so maybe that could be your that the issue that could be issue, but I think, to me, the rule for writing is like if you use it in real life, use it in business. And so like, you know, think about how ridiculous that question would be like, Hey, Joe, what do you what do you what would you think if I sent you a funny email? Be like, great. So I think like, I think you have to, you have to, you have to use it. And I let the responses be the judge. I think more personality and email is always way better.
Joe Glover 49:28
Awesome. Question from over here, which says about copywriting have now lost it. That basically he was looking for the hints and tips or even just thought process behind writing the first line of your copy. And I’ve seen that previously, you’ve always argued that the job on the first line is to gets people to read the second and so on and so forth. But what’s the tip for that first line?
Dave Gerhardt 49:55
The first line for me is often not even like a line tg like a Word. And I start a lot of things like, let’s say Joe and I are going to host an event next week, and I’m going to send out an email that’s going to invite people to that. Most people would be like, join me next Thursday, April 29. For a, you know, exclusive webinar invite with Joe Glover, right? We’re like, the way that I would start that email is, okay, return. So I was thinking that recently, I haven’t had anyone on who’s really great at talking about events. So I thought, who do I know in my network? That’s great at events. Oh, my friend Joe Joe’s run hundreds of meetups over the last two years. And so I call I’m going to call him up on zoom and he’s going to join me next week. That’s how I read it, you know, like, and just by saying, like, Okay, that was a thing that cut through the clutter of that email and got me started and so like, it’s always like, the first line for me is usually some type of story or hook or like, so. Okay, hey, like really quick ways to just hop right into a conversation. Nice and that goes back to you.
Joe Glover 51:00
point about natural language as well, you know, just sort of writing as you speak, which is so important. And particularly going back to your key tenant of authenticity, also something that sort of feels more authentic if you’re speaking as you write this conversation question here from Remy going to summarise it because it’s long, but this question says, You literally wrote the book on conversational marketing. Besides writing the book, where in practice, do you get started?
Dave Gerhardt 51:36
So right, besides reading the book, yeah, before I get started, I mean, I can say to him, yeah, I think I think the the place to get started is to think about is to do an audit of your website and think about, like, what’s a place that
Unknown Speaker 51:51
Dave Gerhardt 51:52
what’s the place, it’d be really easy to replace that or test that new functionality today. So like, let’s say you have, let’s say you’re a marketing consultant, and you have a call So you have a client business and, and you have a button that says, like, you know, contact us or request a quote, that’s already like a high intent page, or somebody’s going to give you their information. Like, that’s where I would think about starting and testing my first like bot would be with something like that. So, so think of really easy things that already exist where you could see a clear lift. The biggest mistake people make is that they try to, you know, Oh, I wish I had a bot on my pricing page that like could could do these 15 things and you ask them, they’re like, well, well, what does that today and they’re like, nothing. It’s like, okay, cool, like, we can get there. But I want to start first in a place that’s really comfortable. Nice,
Joe Glover 52:39
sweet. So you spoke about empathy and the focus on customers. Obviously, that’s something that’s really important to you. But on a day to day basis. I think a lot of marketers get stuck in the tactics. How do you keep yourself and the team focused on your customers? That’s from Jeff.
Dave Gerhardt 53:01
Yes. So So a couple of things is number one thing that we did is we actually had everybody on the team set up a Shopify business and like go instal privy and create an actual ecommerce site to go through and do that, that that can that can be done all the time. The other one is, I think, we use a we use a product called Gong, g o n g. And it’s it’s basically like, call recording for all sales calls and customer success calls, but you can like, you know, hop to certain points and calls and Udi, who’s the CMO from God would kill me if I describe God? It’s amazing. So like, what it’s meant is like, I don’t have to bother the sales team and say, like, hey, let me know when I can come on a call because I also nobody wants to have the CFO on a call with them. And so so I can just go into Gong and listen to calls a lot which makes it really easy. And I think we just, we just have like a natural curiosity in In e commerce and like how our customers are using our product. And so we have this, every Friday, we have show Intel Inside of the company and people are always sharing customer stories or examples as a channel in slack with examples, I think, just part of the DNA of the company, honestly, at the end of the day.
Joe Glover 54:16
Nice, sweet. Last two, I promise. And these are fun ones. The first one is from Steve Actually, he has that 15 minutes ago, so he’s been waiting patiently on the q&a, which is a doesn’t music support your creativity and if so, what you’re listening to
Dave Gerhardt 54:35
does music support my creativity?
It does it’s usually just like music usually just boosts the mood that I’m that I’m already in. I don’t need to go listen to music to get creative. I usually, for me, it’s like, if I just go for a quick walk or workout I can get something quickly. Let me let me let me give you an honest answer like the last thing, the very last thing you The very last song that I listened to was the Beatles come together which is only cuz I was playing it during my kids bath last night.
Joe Glover 55:08
That’s awesome that’s really sorry you know we speak about the DGA list that you know we’ve got the dg playlist, which I think
Dave Gerhardt 55:16
Oh I like that maybe I could maybe I’ll monetize that
Joe Glover 55:20
I think but put it in the Patreon put it in the Patreon last one, I know you’re a sneaker head. So best sneakers all time.
Dave Gerhardt 55:32
Oh my God, my sneakers don’t even remember who I am. I saw a meme that was all my shoes ever remember who I am. And I have this closet of good sneakers that I haven’t wore
best of all time like it’s tough to I can’t say best of all time to not own it because that’s like a fraud of the best is like you gotta own it. So my favourite all time is is Jordan one. I think it just goes with everything. I think even if you’re like, you’re like I’m not sure Do I might look funny in Jordans like Jordan one is a perfect start for everybody.
Joe Glover 56:03
Nice. And on that note.
We can say, Oh, he’s gone mental on the on the chat box with all the emojis and so on that No,
Dave Gerhardt 56:18
no, it’s the right answer.
Joe Glover 56:19
100% said. So, Didi, you know, thanks so much for taking the time for speaking with us. There are some questions which have remained unanswered. So I encourage people to find you on Twitter.
Dave Gerhardt 56:36
Yeah, do that. I’m around this afternoon. So just tweet tweet at Dave Garner your questions, and I’ll try to go and answer them.
Joe Glover 56:42
That’s it. Thank you so much. And you know, appreciate your time. I know you’re a busy man. So I’m grateful for it. And then good, see well, and good see the family. Well, that sort of stuff. So
Dave Gerhardt 56:52
you too, Joe, thanks for thanks for thinking of me. And I’m glad that you’re figuring out a new strategy for this new world and I’ll keep watching what you do. So Thanks very much.
Joe Glover 57:01
And thank you to everyone that took the time to attend tonight as well. The recording will be available on the marketing MIT website. It will also be available on the market metre podcast. Please do thank the sponsors all of whom have been incredible in supporting us throughout the course of all this and you know for the rest of the time. Thank you all and stay safe and I’ll see you soon. Cheers. Take care of them.