Every so often, I invite myself along to someone’s office and become the proverbial fly on the wall to see what I can share with our community.
The latest person kind enough to allow me through their doors was Jon Evans and the team from the Uncensored CMO – the show which has climbed to the top tier of global marketing podcasts through its almost unrivalled guest list of senior marketers.
Heading in…
As I walked through the door of the Uncommon Studio at Clerkenwell where the show was recorded, I had the words of Grace Andrews of The Diary of a CEO ringing in my ear – (Paraphrasing): You don’t build successful show by accident – you build a successful show by caring about every detail.
Enter stage left… James McKinven. James is Uncensored CMO’s producer and a secret weapon.
As I walked through the doors, I heard… “Hi Joe!”
Instantly welcomed in, I felt at ease with James, who guided me through reception, before quickly being introduced to the rest of the growing UnCMO team – Sam (social media), Lara (logistics), and, of course, Jon himself (whom I knew before). Kerry, UnCMO’s MD, wasn’t there but deserves a huge shout-out for the miracles she performs in guest curation.
As I enter the room, the team is relaxed. That vibe can’t be underestimated in an environment like this, where guests may feel intimidated by the interview to come. Compare this to the alternative of someone hanging around in reception by themselves, and you start to see how the attention to detail begins at the front door.
A point that is worthy of note is the environment. In addition to the expected soft directional studio lights, the team have the normal room lights on with the curtain drawn. They explain that this gives a more natural feeling to the space, which again relaxes the guests. Too often, I’ve walked into ‘podcast studios’ which simply have the feeling of an airless store cupboard. While the room can’t be described as airy, it is comfortable. James explains that even though there could be a trade-off with this setup and sound quality, he thinks it brings a sound to the podcast that is, again, more natural.
A funny moment that shows not everything goes to plan: on the day of filming, Jon and the team were greeted by the sound of construction work in the room next door. Thinking on their feet, they negotiated with the builders to get an hour of peace in exchange for a free lunch of chicken wings. Win-win. It’s never as smooth as it looks on the surface.
The tech
Almost immediately, James starts walking me through the tech setup of the show. The brief was that it could be stored away easily, travel well, and be functional without being over the top. “Anything more than what we’ve got here is more for the optics,” James explains. He then proceeds to slam the trusty microphone I’ve been using for our webinars for years as a piece of crap (seriously – he’s built a whole website to point against the microphone I use!) – and encourages me to buy a Shure MV7+ Podcast Microphone like they use on the show if I actually care about content quality, which I duly do on the spot. I didn’t realise this work experience would cost me £245…
Perhaps a more serious point is that James (and the rest of the team!) is treated with a bunch of trust for his specialist area and is clearly passionate about what he does. This is easy to trivialise and move past, but when the team care – it shows – and the UnCMO team absolutely care.
The team record in 4K on a two-camera setup. Interestingly, both Sam, who is in charge of social media content, and James, who edits the main show, take the raw footage and edit it independently – explaining that each platform requires different things. Sometimes a social clip will focus on the guest only, whereas in the full YouTube version, you may see Jon appear at the same timestamp.
The benefit of caché
On the day I was the fly on the wall, Jon had two recordings – the first with Ben Branson, founder of Seedlip.
Ben walks in and immediately greets Jon with a few gifts. I’m struck in that moment by how much of a privilege this is on both sides – for the guest and for Jon. I admire what UnCMO has built, and the fact guests at this level are thrilled to be involved speaks volumes for the show. As a quick aside, it’s also a lovely example of how to be a great, humble guest – credit to Ben.
As is often the case, Jon and Ben chatted before the show went live, and this was the best conversation I heard all day (although the recording was great, too). I do think there’s magic in those pre-show moments, and wonder whether more shows should be making the most of these ‘off the record’ interactions. I like how Gary Neville’s Stick to Football does this in the first five minutes of their podcast.
Getting someone of Ben’s calibre is no mean feat, and I think it speaks to momentum. The show – just like The Marketing Meetup – has grown arms and legs and become a bit of a monster. For this session, I couldn’t get a view into Kerry’s process of convincing guests to come on. Maybe that deserves a part two in itself, although I expect the game is quite different now than it was on day one of the podcast.
The art of interview
Before the recording goes live, Jon walks Ben through the interview. He’s not detailed on every question, but gives a view of the overall flow. I do the same with our TMM guests, as I find it produces a more natural conversation that allows space for curiosity and discovery as the chat goes on. Experience tells me this might not be possible with every guest Jon gets along with – some of the more prominent names probably come with PR teams – but the conversation in this case is natural and sincere. In one moment, Jon gets choked up while asking a question. I hope they keep it in the recording – I thought it was magic and showed Jon was fully present in that moment. While five people were in the room, Jon and Ben were locked into their conversation and gave each other due respect.
Jon had an advantage when speaking with Ben, as he has a background in drinks marketing, so he could share a few anecdotes that got Ben laughing. But I’m most struck, from my ringside seat, by how Jon does one highly underestimated thing: he asks a question and then shuts up. Too often, less experienced interviewers make it about themselves – that wasn’t the case here. That’s not always the answer, but as a general rule of thumb, I find it preferable to a host and guest fighting for the microphone.
The session ran for just over an hour, and the team tell me they aim to get quick approval from the guest after recording before doing the full edit. That reduces the need for re-edits later on. That’s a hard-won experience thing right there.
Again, the conversation after the recording is enjoyable. Ben hangs around and wants to be there – another credit to him and to the UnCMO experience.
Walking out
Heading out of the space and into a slightly stifling Clerkenwell, I reflect on a few things from my work experience with UnCMO:
- A small group of passionate people can achieve a lot. UnCMO created an ego-free environment amongst their team, which extends across everything they do.
- Behind every personality, there’s an equally hard-working team elevating them. Jon regularly calls out his team on social media, and you can see he treats everyone as equals.
- Getting the best out of guests is about making it about them. Jon and the team do this in an understated but thoughtful way – from the environment to the tech to the questions. It’s a simple recipe, but it works.
A great day with great people. Got a team doing something special and want me to come say hello? Get in touch.